How to Make Your Email Flows Do the Selling | #647

Most email teams pour their week into campaigns. The Tuesday send, the launch, the sale out the door by Thursday. Meanwhile their flows quietly out-earn all of it in the background, and almost nobody goes back to optimise them.

That's the beauty and the drawback of flows. Once they're built they run on their own, making money while you sleep, which is exactly why they get left alone. A tiny change to a flow can move a big number, and that's the skill this Playbook is about: not a better campaign, but going back and optimising the automations around how your category actually buys.

We got into it with three of the best Klaviyo practitioners in the country on one panel at K:SYD event: Lachi Agnew, Head of Technology at July, Hani Rifai, Chief Digital Officer at Step One, and Alice Michael, who runs ecommerce and operations across Sportscraft, SABA and JAG at APG & Co. At July alone, flows drive close to half of all email revenue.

In this playbook, we cover three things ecommerce operators need to know about making their flows do the selling:

• Split your revenue into campaigns versus flows and find your biggest earners, because the highest-value flow is usually one you already built
• Shape your flows around your category's buying rhythm and how people actually decide, not the standard flow library
• Build the flow almost nobody builds, the first to second purchase, and lead with help instead of another discount

Connect with Lachi Agnew | Hani Rifai | Alice Michael
Explore July | Step One | APG & Co

Transcript

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Delivery Speed And 2026 Report

SPEAKER_03 0:01

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Why Flows Get Ignored

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Take a look at where most email teams spend their week. Odds are it's on campaigns. The Tuesday send, the new season launch, the sale that has to be out the door by tomorrow. Campaigns get the deadline, the fresh designs, and most of the attention. Your flows are set up, but they probably don't get the love and attention they deserve. And that's the beauty and the drawback of flows all at once. Once they're built, they run autonomously in the background, making you money while you sleep. But that's exactly why they get left alone. They don't get revisited, they don't get optimized, and even a tiny little change to a flow can make a huge difference to your revenue numbers. And that's what I want to unpack today. I got into this with three of the best Clavio practitioners in the country, all on one panel at Clavio's KSID event a couple of months ago. Lockie Agnew is the head of technology at July, the Melbourne luggage brand, and he's built most of their tech stack himself. Hani Riffeye is the chief digital officer at step one, the ASX listed bamboo underwear brand, chasing $100 million. And Alice Michael runs e-commerce and operations across Sportscraft, Saba, and Jag at APG Co. Three very different businesses, but at July alone, flows drive close to half of all their email revenue. Let's get into it.

July Uses Flows For Consideration

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Lock, you've talked a lot about mastering automated flows. Yeah. Tell me about that journey at July, because you've actually been on a journey yourself from a D2C read to having your own stores to having stockers. Yeah. How have you thought about flows?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

It's really interesting in July flows. They're a big rev driver for us for a couple reasons. The biggest one being there's a there's a long purchase period between wanting and buying for premium luggage. It's at a pretty high price point, especially if you're buying like a set. So it's mostly a grand and a half. It's expensive and it's okay. It's this commitment because it's lifetime. Like you're you're you're really thinking about it. It's a thought-about decision that you're making.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

I have one of the OGs that Ethan brought with me with him when he did the live podcast, and it's got add to carbon the grand on that. I'm hanging on to that forever. It's like it's just a nuance. I don't need a new one, though. It's an OG, it's great. Yeah, that's a relic. Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

So there's a long purchasing decision, right? So we spend like majority of our marketing time, a lot of our creative time is building campaigns because we want we want these beautiful campaigns. We want to sell the dream of travel. Like this there's so much that gets put into it, so much time and effort. But because people are going on the website so much, they're not purchasing off the campaign. They're purchasing off the flows because they're going on multiple times. We have their email, they're coming on, but the flows is what actually gets them to convert because they're thinking about it for so long and we're getting them back. So, like, no matter what, our our main web drive will always be our flows. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

And and how long are you setting up those flows for? How how long is a customer in in flow state?

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Hopefully, the dream is within a week or two. That's the sweeps, but it it can be months. Yeah, it can be months. And they usually aren't going through samples. We're actually doing a big body of work of reimagining because we have such beautiful retail stores, we have such beautiful experiences we go in there. And we've kind of felt recently that because we've elevated so much in the physical retail space, that our emails are kind of like bread and butter emails. It's like we'll be like, we're not elevating here, we're not doing those things. So we're actually hopefully by July rolling out brand new flows. But there's also a lot of stuff that we want to do around first-party data with them. So if you know when someone's traveling, right, how nice would it be if like a week before your trip, you're like, we're so excited for your trip in XYZ, or your suitcase to your board, this is gonna, or this would be a perfect trip, or add on packing sales around your actual trip, because usually like it's almost like 70-80% of customers are buying for a trip. Yeah. Like you're not casually buying luggage for and maybe one off.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Store for a few months before you go somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

But to have that data and to do all that and really elevate our flows to be much more personal, first-party data rich is kind of the direction we want

First Party Data Makes Flows Personal

SPEAKER_00 4:50

to go. We want them to be gorgeous, look like the retail store, so that that elevated experience that you're getting when you go and touch the physical product to store, you kind of get on the digital side as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Because you're not heavily promotional, are you? You do the odd spend and save. Yeah. But it's not ever like 20% off site wide kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

No, I mean, we have for a few times we have a warehouse sale which does really well, but discounting isn't really in our warehouse. Yeah. Unless it's like black flags. Yeah, but also like when we do big discounts, it's not like 20% off flat. It's like buy some stuff, pair up what's suit as you want.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Double drape still.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah. But also, it is premium luggage. It's it is lifetime. Yeah, it's great value for what you're getting, but it's so easy to fall in this. Well, we had a funny word for it, but it's like this discounting hell is just kind of like you to race to the bottom to who can do the biggest discount. And all you're doing is killing profits for people that are probably going to purchase anyway. That's right.

Premium Brands And Discount Discipline

SPEAKER_01 5:37

I think the other thing for your category rights, same thing with us is like if you do discount, they buy the luggage, they're not gonna come back for a very long time, right? It's not like yeah, like well, but I mean, even for luggage, right? Even if there's a discount, you you just bought your bags. Yeah. So it's different with something that's like a perishable or it's like a supplement brand, like you're good on sale, yep, you got great order volume, they chew through it and then they have to come back. Yeah. And maybe that's a test and try strategy, but like you're essentially cannibalizing future sales, yeah. Right. And so you kind of need to build that into like it's it's bad money.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

It's not good revenue. Most of our marketing is acquisition. It's like because we've got lifetime, we've got lifetime warranty. It's very good. We stand on the shoulder of our products, like we stand by them. People don't purchase more than once very often. A lot of the time it's just one single purchase. And then the second one is maybe some packing sales or some stuff that they like. Bags are a little bit of a different game. We've got to that the past two years, but acquisitions are such a big

Post Purchase Care Drives Word Of Mouth

SPEAKER_00 6:27

part of it.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

And what do you do with your customers then after they've bought the the ideal kit, they've bought their bag, they've bought their packing kits, do you just go, well, it's been nice now on you?

SPEAKER_00 6:35

No, it this is what we're trying to get really good at in the next four months is if you really look after customers, it's like we're trying to acquisition into more acquisition, right? If we've got a customer and not going to purchase again, you can win on word of mouth. It's like if you are the best customer service, you've got good post-purchase flows around like we want to be sending you emails around like how to best look after your suitcase, what if it comes back from the airport's fresh? How do you do all these things for that particular luggage that you've bought? If you do all this post-purchase really premium stuff, you can get word of mouth because everyone's like, hey, July, it's not just when you purchase, they're looking after you for the next five years. And then that's acquisition again. There's like you're you can get more customers just by looking after your customers.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

There's probably a bit of gifting in there. I'm thinking back to my situation that we're a July family. My wife's got everything, I've got everything. Um, it's fantastic. And it was my sister-in-law's 40th birthday. What are we gonna get? My wife was the first to say the brand new July luggage set, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So she was still buying, but it just wasn't for her.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We say a lot. But that's that's really hard to optimize for. Yes. So it isn't something that we actively do. Like we do stuff like we're we're working with like wedding registries and places where people traditionally buy gifts. But the biggest thing is if you just look after your customer, they're gonna be you know, more fan. Yeah, and you see even the airport. Like, if you go see someone in July, you're like, hey, that's two case. Yeah. And like you have like really earnest conversations at the airport just because you're part of the single club.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

How does it compare to undies?

Step One Builds Repeat Demand

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Obviously, you can't do that in the airport with undies uh comparing undies and also a little bit more, I'd say the replenishment might be a little bit more often.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Potentially. I mean, like we have a lot of customers that are huge advocates, right? And like people that have been around like OGs forever, you know, and we we actually saw there was someone left like a Facebook comment the other day to a link of like a blog that they have about all their step one undies, a guy in the UK, and he's literally collected like every single limited edition print like since the beginning of time, like cataloged them. He's like, please, I'm looking for this one print. You guys haven't re-released it, like I would do anything for this print, right? So we have a lot of brand advocacy, and still word of mouth is is really strong for us. Like we we do have a great product, right? We have an excellent product. Like you won't get the type of zero CAC acquisition and refer a friend stuff if we didn't. So it's it's really strong. Like in terms of like showing it off, people people love it. Like people love to have the waistband and like all the different cool colors and people love to talk about it. But yeah, I mean, it's it's really interesting to think about repeat purchases and what that looks like. Like, you know, I was just saying before to someone that like, you know, you might come in and men will come and buy a seven pack or a 15 pack of undies or something. And then it's like, okay, cool. What next? Right. So your exact question, Nathan, is like, what next? And the answer is like, we have a lot of things that now we're working on to really bring them back into that ecosystem. Like we've started doing complimentary products, we do socks, sleepwear. We just released our new launch of like athletic compression stuff, which is which is looking really cool. But even our limited edition prints, right? Like, that's a huge source of incrementality for us. And the way I think about it is literally like this is like you can come in and you buy your 15 pairs of black and navy and gray that you're gonna wear every day, and you're like, okay, cool. I don't need to look at step one ever again. Oh, cool. Like some cool new print, St. Patrick's Day, Valentine's Day. That's a sick print. I really want that. Yeah, right. And so you know, that's true incrementality. So it's giving them what they need, but then a little bit of what they want. 100%. Like something fun and cool. And like we have a really like we pride ourselves on being a funny company. Like we all have a sense of humor. We love a bit of a gag and a joke, and like, you know, we'll we'll do some really funny, cool stuff and do some naughty campaigns and things like that. Like, we're we're a big fan of cut-through marketing, and people resonate with that. Like, they want like an authentic brand that speaks with humor and gets them and is like can say a swear word and all be fine. So it really is something.

SPEAKER_05 10:02

Question about the flow,

RFM Targeting Without Blanket Discounts

SPEAKER_05 10:03

yeah. Yeah, but how many flows do you have running?

SPEAKER_00 10:05

We have the basics, it's like browser betterment, card abandonment, checkout abnormate, uh welcome flows. But we're starting to edge into now RFM segments. So, like if someone is like a loyal customer and they're moving to at risk, we want to send very direct emails about that. So that that's kind of what we're building out at the moment is like RFM switches. So the second that they're switching from different categories of buyers, we're kind of targeting them a little bit. Again, it's little.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

But to those who might not know RFM, can you give us a brief explanation?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah, RFM, I mean, I forget what it stands for. It's something brief frequency in monetary. But it kind of is just like an XY axis, and depending on how customers are purchasing, the amount of money they're spending, how frequently they're buying, it kind of places them into different keyword groups. So it's kind of like you've got like loyals and champions, which is like your repeat purchases, they're there all the time purchasing from you. You kind of have your pre-purchased customers, so like people that I forget the names of them, but they're kind of like anyone that is like browsing the site, you know about them, but they they have a high propensity to buy. And then you've got things that are like at risk, churned, and like inactive. And a customer will always live in one of these groups. But the really interesting thing is when they switch. So, like depending on the events that they're on site for, they're gonna switch over the course of them being a customer for you, no matter what. They're gonna move across these different categories. But the interesting thing is when when they they trigger across these different categories, usually you can get very targeted messaging. And that's kind of like where we're thinking about putting our discounts in, is kind of like we don't need to do a blast 20% off the website. But if we've got a customer that purchased one small bag and that particular type of customer has purchased before and they bought packets of something, you can get a very targeted message when they go from a loyal customer to an at-risk customer. And we want to really nail down on that so it's much more targeted on the messages that you're sending at the time that they need to purchase. Or the time that they're sorry, that they're likely to purchase or need to purchase.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Are you guys using RFM for your settings?

SPEAKER_05 11:44

Yeah, so we use um it's marketing analytics in within Clubio to power the RFM cohorts. We we've just enabled it, so we haven't quite built flows off it yet. But the idea would have would be that you'd have an abandoned cart, but then you'd have one specific to your champions, you'd have one specific to your at-risk group, and then you'd have one specific to, I don't know, the inactives, for example. And all would have maybe we're we're we are on the discount drug, so we're happy to give a discount. So we've got a discount or maybe another service that we can try and get them over the line with, but that would be example of how we're using or ready to use it in the future.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

You can make sense. I think that for us, like probably the RFM modeling is not as mature from Cloudy O as I would like. So we've kind of built our own kind of custom modeling of like what those cohorts look like, like who are our champions, who are our loyalists, and things like that. Because the modeling's good, but it's not malleable by category. Right. So, like, what does a champion look like for someone else is probably not what a champion looks like for me. That's what we're battling as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yeah. Like a bag purchaser versus a luggage buyer. Very different.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah. So it's really difficult to kind of use that as a one size fits all. And so what we're finding is like we're just layering in, like we're basically doing the same thing, but with different segments, right? And now Clive has added, like, you know, moves in or out of a segment. You can essentially create the exact same functionality as you would have done with an RFM like flow. Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

So Are you just running that through like custom attributes?

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we run the model, it gets piped back to the property, that becomes a segment, and then you're good. We used to do it with just like arbitrary like rules and stuff, but we've just become a little bit more advanced. Like we have all of our data stuff in BigQuery now, and we can really run some cool models and then pipe that back in.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

What's fascinating there is that even for a big, beautiful brand like July, they are not shying away from automation. They know how important it is to optimize these flows, which actually enhance the brand, not take away from it. So let's hear from a few other ad-to-cart guests who have done exactly that and then pull out three things that you can take back and revisit in your own email flows.

Lesson One Find Your Top Flows

SPEAKER_03 13:45

So lesson one, find your high value flows, then make them work harder first. Start by finding out which of your flows are actually high value because the answer might actually surprise you. Open your platform and split your email revenue two ways campaigns versus flows. It's not something that most teams look at that often and that cleanly. And when they do, they often find a handful of automations that they built probably months or maybe years ago, and they are out earning the campaigns that take up most of their week. So the job isn't to go and build more flows, it's to find your biggest earners and make them work harder. And the upside there is enormous because a flow fire is on every single customer who hits that trigger. So even a small improvement stacks up across thousands of sends. One of the clearest breakdowns of this I've heard on the show came from Jason Anderson at Anzan, one of the world's leading clavio and retention agency. Here's Jason on where that money hides and how one small change to a single flow can move the needle.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

Uh the next thing that we'd look at is abandoned cards. So that's obviously just a huge leave for almost everybody. It's generally the highest grossing automation that they have. Um very low-hanging fruit, we tackle that quickly as well. Which is funny, because I've never met anyone who likes an abandoned card email, but they work. Yeah, yeah, they work. Um, I've seen people with abandoned card flows that net, you know, more than $100,000 a month. Yeah. You know, obviously that depends on the size of people that you've got abandoned cards. And maybe that leads to do you have a conversion problem, but still, if you can get someone onto that base, you know, maybe 90% or more will check out once and never come back.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

That's one split on one flow, and it moves both conversion and margin at the same time. So pull your campaign versus flow report this week. Find your two or your three biggest earners and ask what one change would make each of them work harder. All right,

Lesson Two Match Buying Rhythms

SPEAKER_03 15:55

lesson two build your flows around how your category buys and what your product actually needs. But once you know which flows are carrying the load, stop treating the standard flow library as the finish line. Welcome, browser abandoned, card abandoned, post-purchase. It's probably the e-commerce starter kit that everyone has. The brands that are getting real value out of flows shape them around two things. First, their categories buying rhythm, how often the customer genuinely comes back. And the second, the unique attributes of the product and the way that their customers actually decide to buy it. So the questions worth asking are does my customer need to be educated before they'll buy? Do they need peace of mind after the sale so they don't regret it? How long do they sit around and think before they commit? Your flows should not copy other businesses. Your flows should be answering those questions at the exact moment that the customer is asking them. The best example of building a categories rhythm I've heard came from Nat Hinzer, who runs digital and marketing over at Mr. Pool Man, the online pool supplies business that she and her brother grew out of their dad's pool servicing ground. She worked out early that when your pool breaks, you need a needs-based buyer, not a wants-based buyer. Here's Nat on how they read their own data to know exactly when a customer would be back.

SPEAKER_06 17:33

Our post-purchase series has been massive for us. So, of course, you've got your browsing cart abandonments. They're always going to be your best drivers. You've got a great welcome series, really making them feel a part of the family, of course, creating that connection. But then you've got a post-purchase. And with some basic business insights, you can predict that if they come in with a small ticket purchase within 30 days, they're testing the waters. Within 30 days, they're going to come back and purchase what they really need from you. So you really should be there ready for when they're ready to come back and make another purchase from you now that they trust you. Okay, they've purchased that. Do they need this in 47 days? They might need it again in 150 days. You know what I mean? Like, don't be afraid to continually stay in touch with them without annoying them. That's the sweet spot.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Now that episode was recorded well and truly before AI took hold in e-commerce. So Nat and the team mapped out those journeys by hand from their order history. Today, you probably don't have to. The smarter versions of this are baked right into the platforms now. And the answers are probably already sitting in there. And if they're not, you've got your friends like Claude to help you do that. So the hard part now isn't the manual mapping anymore using your data. It's asking the right question. What are the unique operating and decision-making rhythms for your customers? And have you built a unique flow for each

Lesson Three Win The Second Order

SPEAKER_03 19:03

one? Lesson three build the flow almost nobody builds the first to second purchase. The last one is the flow that I love the most and is this flow that most teams never actually get to. And it might be the most valuable of the lot. But turning a first-time buyer into a second time buyer. In most databases, the steepest drop-off is right there between order one and order two. Get someone to buy a second time and the odds of a third and a fourth jump. So that single moment shapes your whole retention curve. But it's bigger than retention. Every extra order you get from a customer you've already paid to acquire spreads that acquisition cost across more purchases. Win the second order, and you've effectively halved your cost of acquisition on that customer. Win the third and the fourth, and the economics of paid advertising becomes really, really strong. One mistake I see a lot of teams make, and it's an easy one when you're flat out, is to treat that second order gap as a reason to fire off another discount. The better play is to give before you ask. Help the customer get real value out of the thing they just bought. And the second purchase becomes a lot more likely if the first one was a great experience. Nobody frames this better than Jen Gilbert, who is the head of digital at Neutra Organics, the family-owned natural health food brand who has built a huge repeat business off exactly this thinking. Here's Jen on why that first to second jump is so hard and how she thinks about closing it.

SPEAKER_07 20:45

I think most of the companies also would have like 70% of their customers would be first-time customers because that hurdle from one to two is really tricky. So I'd always pick a repeat customer.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Do you have any tips or tricks to get customers from that first purchase into that second purchase?

SPEAKER_07 21:05

I do have a couple of little tricks.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Any that you want to share?

SPEAKER_07 21:08

I think the final mile is something that gets overlooked a lot. You've spent so much time and effort in getting a customer to your website. You've created the awareness, you've created the activation, you've converted them, and then they get the product. Was that an enjoyable experience? When they unopened their box, was there a magic moment in there?

SPEAKER_03 21:32

So build one flow with a single job, turning a first-time buyer into a second-time buyer. Lead with help, not a hard sale. Show them how to get the most out of what they just bought. Give them a reason to come back that isn't only money off and save the incentive for when you actually need it. If you don't have that flow today, it's the most valuable one that you can build out straight away. So if you take one thing into your week, don't just go out and make better campaigns. Make it 30 minutes with your flow report open, looking at what those automations are actually earning and where a small change could make real money. Campaigns will always shout the loudest and the most urgently. Your flows are steady, repeatable revenue, and they reward whoever actually goes back and optimizes them constantly.

Community Invite And Closing

SPEAKER_03 22:22

Now, if you want to compare notes on which flows are pulling their weight or how other teams have mapped out their repurchase windows and their first to second purchase play, that's exactly the kind of conversation that we're having over in the Add to Cart community every day. You can join for free over on ad to cart.com.au. That is the playbook for this week. I'll see you next Friday.