Why Converse Lets Creators Break Its Own Brand Rules with Dave Dullens | #645

Dave Dullens has spent 20 years keeping brands like that relevant. He's Head of Brand and Consumer at Conquest Sports, the 45-year Converse licensee for Australia and New Zealand, and his whole career has run through iconic footwear: Converse, Vans, Timberland, Dr. Martens. This isn't a creative-tactics episode, it's a masterclass in keeping an iconic brand relevant across generations.

In this episode, Dave sits down with Nathan Bush to make the case for brand in a business obsessed with conversion. We get into why the algorithm understands conversion but not your brand priorities, so some messages need their own budget to find an audience. We unpack his layered creator pyramid, from nano and micro fans through to global ambassadors, and why leaning into what a creator already does well beats handing them a rigid brief. 

And Dave explains what it actually takes to let go of brand control, including the dirty-sneaker video that broke all of Converse's rules and still drove sales. Plus why he thinks physical and offline is the next real resurgence, and how to measure brand so the finance team stops treating it as fluff.

Brands and tools mentioned: Converse, Conquest Sports, Vans, Timberland, Dr. Martens, Nike, Jordan, Hurley, Tracksuit, Meta, TikTok, Reddit, Patten

In this episode:

• Why the algorithm optimises for conversion, not brand, so some messages need carved-out budget to reach new audiences
• How to build a layered creator program and brief creators to their strengths instead of scripting them
• How to measure brand with tracking and research so it earns budget in a numbers-driven business

Connect with Dave Dullens
Explore Converse

Transcript

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Why Brand Beats The Funnel

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Without the brand, it's hard to push down the funnel, and the funnel only gets you so far. It's just a shoe until I put it on and then it becomes part of who I am, what I do. You can't really do the second one without the first one. If you're not planting trees, you're not harvesting anything. I'm Dave Dullens from Conquest Sports, and in this episode of Add to Cart, I talk about managing global brands in local markets.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

In 1917, 1917, the Converse Chuck Taylor was a basketball shoe. Flat sole, bit of canvas, worn with a singlet and shorts out in the court. It was the go-to. Over a hundred years later, it's still a cultural icon. And it got there for one reason. The brand followed the consumer. It didn't drag the consumer along. My guest today has spent 20 years keeping brands like that relevant. His name is Dave Dullens, and he is the head of brand and consumer at Conquest Sports. They run Converse here across Australia and New Zealand. Now, if you've not worked with a licensee or distributor model before, here's the short version. They run the lot. D2C, wholesale marketing, right down to the warehousing. And I think Dave might know more about footwear, or at least streetwear footwear, in this country than anyone else. His whole career has been inside of these brands. Converse, then Vans, Timberland, Doc Martin's, and then over at Accent Group, and then back to Converse. I actually met Dave for the first time on stage at Patton's Future of Social event. We had about 20 minutes on stage together, and I walked off that stage thinking that I didn't get to ask him half the stuff that I really wanted to. So this was a chance for the extended cut. And disappointingly, he recorded not wearing any shoes at all. Not very on brand. But here is what I loved about this conversation. It's not really a creator tactics episode. It's a masterclass in keeping an iconic brand relevant across generations. We get into the case for brand when everyone else in the business is obsessed with conversion and what it takes to let go of brand control, including a great example of a dirty sneaker video that broke all of Converse's rules and still did an amazing job. Now, just quickly before we get into today's episode, I want to say a huge thank you to our partners at Shopify and at Clavio for making Add to Cart possible. We could not bring you this show without their support. And if you want a cheat sheet, if you want to get all the links, the really short version of all the tips, the practical tips that Dave gives in this episode, head on over to adtocart.com.au and sign up for our free newsletter. I send it out on the afternoon that the episode goes live to give you the quick cheat sheet of everything that you might have missed. So here is head of brand and consumer Dave Dullens from Conquest Sports.

Inside A Licensee And Distributor

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Dave, welcome to Ad Decart. Dave, how are you, mate? I'm well, I'm well. I'm excited about this conversation because we were on stage at the Patent Future of Social event, and that was when I met you for the first time. And we had a great conversation on stage. I really enjoyed it. And I got off that and I was like, Dave, I didn't ask half the questions that I wanted to ask. We had about 20 minutes. You really opened up my eyes into how big brands and established brands can use influencers in UGC. But I got a feeling there's a lot more to what you do than that.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah, that's that's uh tip of the iceberg of probably what we spoke about, but yeah, it goes pretty deep. So no, that was a good chat. I enjoyed that. It's a good little session up there in in Sydney. So yeah, nice to connect and chat all things, marketing and and content and social. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Definitely. So tell me, you are the head of brand and consumer at Conquest Brands, of which you, as I understand, look after mainly Converse in a licensee and distributor mode. So, firstly, tell me about Conquest Brands and what it means because a lot of people might not have been in a licensee and distributor business before. We're either in brands or we're retailers. What is that?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah, so Conquest Sports, uh, it's been a Converse licensee for close on 45 years. So longest global licensee for Converse around the world. So it's pretty much a business that uh licenses the brands and manages it in the country and the in the jurisdiction that they have. So we are across Australia and New Zealand uh for Converse brand. And we also do um some kids brands. So we also manage kids apparel for Nike, Jordan, and Converse as well. Uh we also have the distribution rights for Hurley, and that's kind of subcontracted out to another partner who runs Hurley across Australasia. So yeah, funnily enough, my whole career has been with licensee brands. So, you know, I started my marketing career at Conquest working uh with you know the Converse brand and then some other brands we did at the time. Went over to Axant Group, which is another licensee uh distributor model, worked across bands and Timberland, Up Martin, Stance, and then found myself back at Conquest Sports, back on the Converse brand. So yeah, we you know the way it works, we work really closely with global brands, but ultimately manage the brand in the market.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

And are you responsible for e-com and D2C as well in the market?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Yeah, yeah. So we pretty much run everything. We run D2C, wholesale, obviously marketing, anything that you know shows up Converse, all distribution is managed through us. We warehouse and and you know, dispatch everything ourselves, bring it in, send it out.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Awesome. And from a career perspective, has that been intentional by you, or you've kind of just fallen into not just licensing distributors, but also footwear? Like you must be the person who knows the most about footwear in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Like not intentional. I've kind of just landed there and and kept down that path. I don't have any any fish with feet or anything like that. There's nothing on that side. I I'm just attracted to like brands that are appealing to like a youth audience, and there's opportunity in footwear. So yeah, across you know, Converse Vans, Timberland, Chuck Martins, it's uh had some great brands to sort of you know work with and work on. And yeah, just found myself there.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

This could be a dangerous question given that you're recording from home. But what have you got on your feet right now? Are you rocking Chuck Taylors? What what what's your go-to?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

In complete transparency, we are shoeless house. So I have a pair of socks on. Not great for business.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Work from home, is it?

SPEAKER_01 6:49

That is that is it. So uh the Chuck Taylors just tends to be the go. Uh, I've got some pretty special ones in the wardrobe that come out every so often, and then you know, the standard beaters that are beats of shit, but they're they look better. So mix. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Awesome.

Local Voice Versus Global Campaigns

SPEAKER_00 7:03

And in your role as head of brand and consumer, what does your remit look like? How far do you go? Um because we had a question in our community and it was from Tina Trenka Mead, and she said, How do you localize a global brand for this region? Because Convo is such a well-known brand, right? And how do you localize that for Australia? And how comfortable do you feel when providing pushback when maybe overseas or head office are pushing what they think is best? So that was from Tina in our community.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah, so it's it's a good question. Thank you, Tina. Uh so obviously there's a brand STR and some things that you know globally we're trying to all rely on, whether that's product or or messaging. But local voice is you know extremely important in each market that Commerce operates in. So I think going are the days where a global campaign just lands everywhere and and off you go. It's really important to understand the nuance of each market across any brand and really adapt to that to hit the local consumer. You know, for someone in Australia to hear a message in an Australian accent that's talking directly to them and maybe a neighborhood that they recognize has far more impact than a face they don't recognise or something that's come down globally. So understanding the local consumer is really critical. And then understanding, I guess, the line between what you are able to produce, like both from a directive point of view and a capability, versus you know, what's stepping over the line. You know, you you gotta stay true with what the brand stands for. And I guess my job as head of brand consumer is to understand what that is and implement it locally.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

I'm interested in your view here because we've had a lot of guests recently. It feels like the surge towards the US market is opening up again from a lot of the people that we're speaking to, and that seems to be the next play over the next 12 months. It's always been strong, but I think tariffs put a little bit of a dent in the ambitions for a little while. Given what you've seen in the market, how do you describe the difference between Australian consumers and US consumers?

SPEAKER_01 9:06

I think locally we're a lot more multicultural. And you sort of see that coming through in a lot of the messages and who shows up in content and campaigns and things like that. We're we're a lot more influenced by what's happening in sort of Southeast Asia and Korea and Japan and China, where you sort of get a bit of that rollback here. So I'm sort of seeing a little bit more of that influence coming our way rather than maybe US. Like US is always going to dominate because, you know, locally sport plays a huge role in what we do, and we've got big eyes over in in North America and what's happening in whether that's NBA or you know, any kind of things that are happening over there, athletics. So yeah, I I I do think the multicultural piece in our market, especially in Australia, plays a much bigger role than it does probably in North America.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

So that's interesting, isn't it? So US has more volume, obviously, but you can probably address that that audience with a more generic brand, but at a bigger scale?

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, look, I don't want to speak on I'm spent some time in America, but I don't want to speak on behalf of Americans. But you know, from my knowledge locally, I think, yeah, that multicultural piece does kind of cut through a little bit better, just as there's so many, you know, there's examples of where you put something out and it'll appeal to a consumer that you kind of were targeting, but you just hit them anyway based on who was in the campaign.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

So uh yeah, I feel like that's a bit of a to bring that to life for people who may not have worked in global brands before, whether that be at Conquest or in your past experience, yeah. Have you got any examples where you've had a campaign or a brand positioning come to you from a global team? And obviously it goes to more regions than just Australia and New Zealand, that you've had to then actually go, actually we can take bits of this, but then we've got to localize it to really make it connect here?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah, there's a few things that uh you know, a few programs and things that I've brought to the market, probably in my time at Accent Group. So Vans, the Vans brand had a a platform called House of Vance, uh, which was like a music venue situation where they put on shows. And we really had to localize that to hit our local flavour, you know. So, you know, obviously local bands and local acts and get really into the communities and the niches of what really appeals here. Where, you know, it was probably if you look at a US point of view, it's probably a lot of pop punk and that sort of stuff appealing to a band's consumer. Where down here, you know, we put the chats on as the headline band who are like so Australian it like it hurts. So you really gotta lean into what works here uh more so than just a cookie cutter, hey, just drag and drop. Uh look, it comes to campaigns too. We're always trying to tr find, you know, a true representation of what Australia is when you're putting people in front of the camera. Um you know, a diverse mix of of people and backgrounds and and beliefs. You know, we do a lot of work with um you know, we have a Pride campaign with Commerce we bring out every year. So we work closely with local communities and and local organizations. Minus 18, we work with closely here, always getting their point of view on what works. So it's about getting into those communities and getting the real feedback that matters to who you're trying to target.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So that leads to my next question, and it may be more me being introspective than a reflection on you. But you've been in the game for 20 years, where I think a similar age. How do you stay cool? Like when you're dealing with streetwear and youth culture, how do you stay on top of it all?

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Uh yeah. Well, the the early lesson you're gonna learn is just take yourself out of it. Like you're not the consumer. Like stop trying to lean into what you think is cool, because that changes pretty quickly. Like when you hit four in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

So I think it's just like I feel like kids kill it as well. I used to be cool before kids.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So that just puts a stop button on that cool, cool journey. Um, but like it's again, it's you just gotta stay close to what's happening. Um, you know, if you're into culture, do you stay into it? Whether that's you know, fashion or it's music or whatever it is, you you tend to lean right in and and and you know, you have to be curious and you have to keep kind of exploring and and understanding what's happening. So I think that keeps you on the pulse. But then you also gotta surround yourself with good people. You know, you can't do it all. Um, you know, so my team, my teams have always been fantastic and always younger, you know, you're trying to get people that are closer to those communities and have a good point of view and trust them to, you know, steer the brand in the direction of the brands that they should be going.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Yeah, that makes

Keeping Icons Relevant Across Generations

SPEAKER_00 13:30

sense. I can imagine that with a brand like Converse, it would be very easy to slip into nostalgia territory. How do you make sure you keep brands moving forward and being relevant and desired by new generations as they come through?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

It's a really interesting one. When I look back on my career and the brands that I've worked with, there's always been an iconic product that's stood this test of time over generations. It's really fascinating me. Like if you look at Doc Martins, they got a 1460 boot, like the classic Doc Martins boot, which came out in the 60s and is still isn't relevant today. Look at Timberland, they've got the yellow waterproof boot, which came out of the 70s, again, still relevant today. And the Chuck Taylor, you know, came out in the early 1900s. Did it really? Yeah, 1917. So, and like still a hundred years plus later, still relevant today. And like most mostly unchanged. You know, you see that silhouette, and it's pretty similar to what was back then. And that is because the brands need to continue to evolve with the consumers. You you don't get to this position with any of these brands by standing still and standing by your morals. And the interesting part is the consumer always brought those brands across. What those products are being used for now aren't what the products were made for. Like a Timberland boot was made for the dead of winter, waterproof, like in North Hampshire, freezing cold, and it's worn on the streets of New York and in Piploc Videos, you know? A Chuck Taylor was made for basketball, you know, a professional on court basketball shoe in the 1920s and 30s.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Lorna Jane built a whole brand on the idea that movement is medicine. And it turns out their customers took that literally because they do not stand still. They'll discover the brand in a store, shop online a few days later, then tap through the app. Sometimes all of this happening in the space of a couple of days. That is beautiful for loyalty, but a nightmare to keep up with. Especially when, like Lorna Jane, your email and SMS are stuck in two completely different systems. So they've brought it all together with Clavio. One platform, one customer profile, and a shift from blasting campaigns to nurturing proper life cycle journeys. Post-purchase upsells alone now drive three to four times the order rate. And across the last year, they've pulled an 84 times ROI on email and SMS. 84 times. For a brand that swears that movement is medicine, that is a very healthy result. Head to Clavio.com forward slash AU and see how brands like Lorna Jane are doing it right. I can't get an image out of my head. I really want to see like a black and white photo of someone in Chuck Taylors in like 1917. I think that'd be wild.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

The crazy thing is literally throughout the 30s, 40s, and 50s, it was the uniform for basketball. It was like you wear a singlet, you wear a pair of shorts, and you wear a pair of these shoes, and that's what you're playing. So, and now it's like it's unfathomable that that is the performance product that you would put on your feet to play basketball. So it's about following the consumer where they take it. So, you know, through the Dr. Martins example, in the 60s, it was a you know a work boot, and it was adopted by the punk rock movement, and that took him in a certain direction, and the attitude of that kind of the brand leaned into to be like, okay, let's they then push back against it. Same with Timberland and hip-hop, same with you know, Chuck Taylors and skateboarding and music and art and that whole creative community who treated it as blank canvas. It's like, cool, this is like uh, you know, a shoe that I can wear and be myself. So we take that attitude, or I've taken that attitude all the way. Where do the consumers lead us? And then how do we be useful to that consumer now?

SPEAKER_00 17:18

So there's three really good examples of massive brands with iconic products that have moved away from well not moved away, but is but evolved from where the core was originally into new cultures and subcultures. And are you saying that most of that happens organically? Like when you are working with brands, are you trying to push into new cultures and subcultures?

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Uh I don't know if you you can, but it can be pretty forced. You know, you don't want to force yourself into a community where you don't belong. So we've always kind of been across the brands I've worked with, like ingrained in those organically. And that allows you to lean in on or with some authenticity. You know, you belong there because the people there have chosen you to belong there. You know, there's many Canvas shoe brands around. Those consumers could have chosen any one of those, uh, but they've chosen this one. You know. So, you know, you lean into that. And look, there's other communities where you know Converse is a part of that we don't kind of actively play there. Strangely enough, like the power lifting weightlifting community loves Chuck Taylors because they're flat, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

I see them in my gym all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

That's it's like a thing that people wear in the gym because they're like they're comfortable, they're stable. We don't actively play there. Because we sort of choose to be like, well, is that something that is for our brand? Maybe not. We'll leave that to more athletic brands and and play there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

How do you how do you go, yeah, we'd lean into skateboarding, but we wouldn't lean into gym?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah, we're not built for athletics, and I think skateboarding is kind of more creative.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

So, you know, it's there's a craft of skateboarding, and yeah, you know, you've got to put your body on the line and you've got to come up with something new that hasn't been done before in a new spot, and not to have a dig at weightlifters, but just lifting heavy stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Is it true in your brand guidelines? You've just got no meat heads.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Yeah, yeah. No heavy things. Anything over 80 kilos, put it down. Yeah.

Finding Consumer Signals Before Research

SPEAKER_00 19:17

I love it. So, in terms of then getting those signals from where the interest might be coming from as you're looking to continually evolve brands, and you're looking for new areas where you can expand and keep these brands relevant. Where are you picking up those signals from? Are there any particular channels or places?

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, look, I like to I'm a firm believer in like the consumer decides what's going on. They decide if they like what you've put out, they decide if they're gonna buy it. So I'm I read everything. I read the comments, I read the DMs, I read other brands' comments and DMs, like really staying up with what people are saying that are they like and don't like, which then allows you to sort of steer in a certain direction or another direction. Like you might have a hypothesis that is, you know, founded in something that someone's saying online in a comment section, or you might have something that just gets cancelled out because you're like, oh, it's completely wrong on that. So there's a bit of that. There's also like trend reports and things, which I think have a place, but it's more of a it's more of a map than a you know a destination.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

It's like this is where things could go. Do you like to do much formal research, or do you think you get enough signals out of social?

SPEAKER_01 20:26

We do a lot of consumer research ourselves just to understand where we're at in the market. So we use tracksuit. I really like that as a sort of brand tracking platform. Uh that's great because it's kind of always on and you get a like real-time steer every month on on what's happening. So across your traditional funnel and then all other channels. We also do some other market research which dives a bit deeper into some of our specifics and on our brands that we want to understand, uh, versus some others. And then, you know, brand love scores and and lifeline buy next. And so you kind of get an understanding of where we're at, where some others are at in the market. It does feel like it has a lag, like things that you can see, because we in a wholesale and a and a retail environment, you're buying six to nine months ahead. So you kind of gotta have an early steer on I we think this is coming, so let's make a place of bet there, or or we don't, or you know, hedge your bets and go halfway. So yeah, you try to get as many singles as you can. Convice is really great, they share a lot of information that they have, and all the brands have sort of been pretty transparent with you know, design direction and and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

So I'm interested in uh that piece that you say around signals and whether that matches up towards what you see in sales, because as a licensee and distributor, you've got obviously a lot of different sales channels from wholesale to retail to D to C. Do you find that the sales data matches up what you see from a brand and consumer perspective?

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah, I think sometimes it's interesting. We'll tend to get a read in our own channels before we get a read outside of that. And look, that comes down to As a brand, you'll tend to provide the breadth of the product offering to your consumer directly. Uh, whereas wholesale is a much you know refined FR or or picked and choose. So, you know, we'll test a lot of things uh from a product to see what's working, and then we can tend to take those to wholesale partners and say, hey, there's some really good opportunity here. We think this is an opportunity for your business because you have this consumer in your business. So uh yeah, and then how they match back to the signals that we're kind of getting from our consumers and our market research, sometimes. Like sometimes trends really push something, like an iteration, you know, embroidery has been really strong for us as recently from a Chuck Taylor point of view. You know, we're not getting any research that says, hey, embroidery.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

That's just as in people embroidering their own shoes or it being as a service?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

No, like a embroidered design on a shoe that's pre-done. Like, you know, we'd have a floral embroidery pack and people would really resonate with that, but that's not getting surfaced up in any of our research.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Why's that?

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Well, there's a there's a bit of stuff like there's some macro trends that sort of happen, which we're trying to you kind of lean into, you know, at the moment, there's big sort of 2000 era like running and technical stuff that happens, you know, from a comments point of view, we don't have that product, we don't play in that trend. And then there's the whole soccer, sambar, you know, vintage soccer jersey, world cup fever that's also happening. So you get some big macro trends, but kind of when they get down into niches, that tends to be like a small community that really resonates with that kind of look, and they find it and they buy it. They tell their friends and they buy it. So yeah.

Building A Creator And UGC Pyramid

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Fast followers. On that, on that influence piece, you've gone down the path of creator and UGC. And this is a lot of what we spoke about on stage a couple of weeks ago. Obviously, with a brand like Converse, you've got to be very careful because it is a well-established brand. You spend a lot of money on campaigns and brand identity globally. Tell me, what was your reasoning around opening up this to creators and UGC?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

It was it was kind of a content play. You know, we would get we get great content from the global side of things as a distributor. We would then produce our own content, local content, but we probably still weren't hitting the scale that we needed to feed these social algorithms and things that, you know, since things have changed, it was like feed the beast and then it'll decide and and find the right thing and and you know work for you. So it was it started as a content play, and then also we moved into this patent creators platform, which we spoke about. So Paton is our digital marketing partner. They brought to market for the first time in Australia a platform called Patent Creators, which is essentially a UGC management platform. And so we were the first organization in Australia to give that a try. So we saw a good opportunity there to test it out. So what that meant for us was onboarding a bunch of sort of micro and nano creators that were relevant to our brand that were either already tagging us in content or posting that converse or just in that streetwear and and fashion space, uh, bringing them in and providing contra product uh for content in exchange. So in the past, we would sort of be pretty manual, with being people's DMs and then sidebarring contracts and agreements and one-to-ones, or we'd be paying high-level influencers to post content and have contracts around that. So, what this allowed us to do is that that seeding piece, that contra piece, just centralize it, uh streamline it, uh, and make it kind of more efficient for us.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

So, two interesting pieces there. Obviously, the pattern piece, because I think everything managing UGC and creators sounds great until you realize how manual and time-intensive it is.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

So we have to actually have to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah. It's the worst process ever.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

So that's interesting. I also think it's interesting that you've pulled back and gone down the micro and nano path with influencers, we wouldn't even call them influencers, but just fans who are already engaged rather than trying to find your desired audience and then get them to wear Converse.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Yeah, it's sort of it's a bit of a mix. So the starting point was probably it's an easier sell when someone likes your brand. In any case, if you're talking to an influencer, if you're talking to a wholesaler, if you're talking to anyone, if they're a fan of your brand, they're gonna listen and they probably want to participate. When it's cold, you're not gonna get sort of genuine content either. So you're leaning into people who are fans already, because the content is gonna be better. So we start there, and then we go into look-alikes, and you go to people that you know look like, smell like, and then you start to grow from there. So we do layer in this piece uh with different tiers. So this would kind of be our mass market, like we're gonna get a lot of content for product. We have paid influencer programs, we have other community programs, we have a program called the Compass All-Stars, which is like some hand-picked young people that we've brought in across the country. And we work with not as an influencer, but as a bit of a partner. So we provide funding for their projects and in turn that way the product and they tag us. Uh so we layer them into the mix of our kind of influencer sphere. And then we also get great brand ambassadors from you know North America and global brands that we can leverage from our content point of view as well. So we've kind of got a bit of a you know, content pyramid.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Yeah. It's very layered, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah. Which I think is important, you know, because some are really polished high-end assets that show up well and you know, is probably built to disrupt the feed. And then you've got UGC, which is built to just work in and and entertain or or just excite someone about what's in their feed.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

So can I test this pyramid with you? Can can I kind of frame up what's in my head? Have we got and tell me if I'm totally wrong? Micro and nano at the front, which is primarily your existing fans, might not have huge audiences, but are really passionate, can create content if you offer to send them a pair of Converse or whatever shoes you're working for, they're likely to take it and create content just because they're already in there.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah. So yeah, the way we've set that up is uh we brought them in with a couple of pieces. So there's an affiliate piece to it as well, and they also get a discount code to share with our audience. So there is something in it for them, other than just a free pair of shoes.

unknown 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Okay. So then when they post it and they give an affiliate code, they earn a percentage back on whatever sells from that, from that link.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

And then you'll have your lookalike audiences who I assume are people who may not be direct or outwardly fans of Converse, but of, you know, mirror who your fans are and maybe have larger audiences. Yep. And then you go into your ambassadors, potentially, maybe more in that celebrity space.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yeah, we sort of we'll get the Converse All-Stars, which would I guess would be kind of in the ambassador tier. We'd call them community. And then we would the next tier above, we would work with some influencers which might be recognizable to people that were contracting uh for certain campaigns where relevant. And then the top of the tier would be the global talent that is contract globally, and we we use those assets as well.

unknown 29:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

And then you've got partnerships as well, which is the likes of Nike and people who you're working with naturally.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yeah, like we have collaborations with different brands. Um, and they tend to have talent attached to them as well, whether that's you know a designer or you know, a label.

unknown 29:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah. And then I assume then on top of all of that from a content perspective, you've got your own campaigns and your internally produced content as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah, and then you know, we run always on campaigns through most of the social channels, which is kind of a bit more lower funnel. So, you know, we're trying to land messages in the kind of influencer space and and and that content funnel. We're also trying to sub product. So uh, you know, we run always on ads, we do a lot of retargeting based on what they're seeing on this side versus that side. So there's plenty of content.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, there's a lot of content. Have you got a content figure in mind that you're trying to hit every week or month to keep that cadence happening?

SPEAKER_01 30:05

I wouldn't say a figure. We tend to ebb and flow, like we'll have always on, we've got product that's always available, and then you know, we'll ebb and flow when big campaigns or big product launches come and go. So they're the they're the peaks where we'll kind of engage the whole pyramid uh to create. And then other times we'll sort of just let the always-on thing bubble away.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

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Brand Spend In An Algorithm World

SPEAKER_00 31:12

more. Makes sense. There's a lot of talk at the moment, especially with Meta's new models, uh, where they're essentially taking away your need to tell them what part of the funnel or the customer journey you're targeting. And they're saying, actually, just give us everything into one campaign and we'll work out where the consumer is on the journey to drive your results. It's interesting in that you actually don't have to guess and break down your campaigns into this is traffic, this is awareness, this is conversion. But at the same time, I think it's going to get very frustrating because everything will be pointed towards conversion or people will be measuring success on conversion.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

With the brands that you're working on, that, especially from your brand perspective, like that's your heritage, and how do you make sure that you have a good mixture of content that keeps that brand relevant and in the minds of people and that which drives conversion?

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Yeah, look, probably probably talking to the meta and the and the algorithm thing, like there's sometimes you just you need some messages to cut through. You can't rely on the algorithm to surface the most commercial. That's fine. If if I was selling one product and all I was worried about was converting that one product, sure, let that go. But the reality is brands don't sell one product, brands sell hundreds of products. And some things need to find an audience to be able to establish as a product. So, you know, sometimes we need to step out of that algorithm and give things its own budget to be like, this needs to find an audience because this is what we want to talk about, this is what we want to grow. So we're constantly kind of you know working through the content that we have and navigating the algorithm where we need to. You know, set up a separate ad set that delivers to an audience and then feed that back into your master ad set that can then push them down to finance with conversion. But yeah, we can't always rely on the algorithm to to do it, doesn't understand the brand priorities. It understands conversion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

So have you got any examples of where you've gone, actually, we need to fund this message. Like this is just a message that we want to get out there, especially through social content. I don't care about conversion at this point, but this is a really important message to help grow our brand.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah. Well, look, that's a battle that we constantly have like every month, I'd say, internal, external, like, because you've got people with priorities. Like, my priority is to drive people to the website to buy. I'm like, cool. My priority is to grow the brand so people want to come to the website and buy, as well as driving sales. So you always gotta play this two sides of the coin. So, you know, most, you know, a couple of times a quarter we'll have a campaign that needs needs attention. So you will carve out budget, we'll say this is non-conversion, this is brand, we're gonna deliver these for awareness, we're gonna deliver these for reach, and then we're gonna ladder that down into consideration conversion. But you need that first piece to get the second piece. Because, you know, if we just let the algorithm do its thing, it's gonna keep showing the same product to the same people and and and push them all the way down. So the chance to talk to new is different.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Yeah. What's your approach to getting new consumers into the brand? Do you have any special messaging or formats that you find to acquire or engage new consumers?

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Um we tend to do a lot of look-alike targeting. You know, people who like our brand are likely to look like people who also might like our brand. So we'll do it with that. You know, it's we work with a different wholesale partners. We we tend to use them as some positioning sometimes. So, you know, getting into the right accounts gets you in front of customers that uh don't come to the converse.com or don't walk into a converse store. So I guess that's the power of wholesale, and that's where you know you'll talk to a consumer that's looking at six or seven brands as options, and you're one of them. So finding the right putting the right product in the right places is is a big part of kind of marketplace management. So, you know, building good relationships with wholesale partners is pretty essential to that as well.

unknown 35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

It's really interesting, isn't it? Because even all the brands that you've worked across and that you've mentioned so far, new consumers probably already have an opinion one way or another, even if they haven't experienced it, because you are such real-world brands, you exist, like you can't avoid them. I know my 11-year-old, he's basketball mad and thinks he's the coolest guy in the world, even though he's 11. And we were somewhere the other day, and I said, Oh, look at these cons, these will be cool. He's like, I don't wear cons. I'm like, why not? He's like, I wear Nike. And I'm like, he's got no grounding at all on why it is or what it isn't, but they've got an opinion, and that will change and evolve over time.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Yeah, and they uh it feels like they're getting that younger. When I was 11, I didn't. I was just wearing whatever my parents had got me. I'm the same. Like, he wears Jordans. I'm like, mate, can you put some combos on? He's like, I want to put Jordan. So hey, look, hey, I said the consumer decides, he's a consumer, he's gonna decide what he wants to wear, and that's fine, no matter what his dad says, you know. Yeah, it's not the only thing he pushes back on either. So, you

Affiliate Links As Content Incentives

SPEAKER_01 36:11

know.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

I want to put uh I want to go back to what you said about affiliate because I think that's really interesting and a model that we don't do a lot of in Australia, very popular in the US. Yeah, big time. We've obviously got a few technical challenges with, you know, TikTok shop isn't here yet. I don't think, you know, it's just not part of a big part of our culture around rewarding others for producing content that directly drives sales. Do you find that the effort to uh work on those affiliate programs justifies the outcome?

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Well, I think you're and you're right. It's not a massive part of it. And even when we were exploring it, we're like, is this right for footwear? Like it feels like, you know, FMCG or or cosmetics and things feels like a place that that really works and lands. So we thought we'd give it a try uh locally. It's it's it's not what it needs to do, I think. So the effort's there, but the power is only the content. You know, we we get great content, we then leverage that content back into our channels. Um and yeah, it just allows us to feed that funnel with content more so than you know, and it pays for itself from a affiliate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

So the the the direct sales is secondary to it, and it's almost like a little bit of a cherry for the creator to go.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah, I think if they're doing good content, we want to reward them for it. So that's what the affiliate's there for. It also, you know, just allows us to start to set up when things like TikTok shop do come into market. You know, we we would have a community ready to go who's used to working with us, we're used to working with them, um, they're creating content, and then you know, it just falls into another platform and they can monetize over there as well. As

TikTok Shop Reality And What’s Next

SPEAKER_01 37:51

can we.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

I'm keen to get your thought on TikTok shop, especially after the patent event, because we had Tim from TikTok present, and since then there's been a little bit of press. It feels to me like TikTok have basically put their hands up and said, if you're in Australia, don't wait for TikTok shop because it isn't happening anytime soon.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yeah, I think it's I still think that like from a brand point of view, brands really want it and they think they want it, but they're not producing content at the scale to justify TikTok opening it. Yeah, is the message I'm I'm understanding from TikTok. So until it's cut before the horse kind of stuff, like brands are like, cool, when TikTok shock comes, we'll go. Like, actually, no, you're gonna go now, and then TikTok shock will come.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

So TikTok isn't sitting there not driving sales at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

They're doing fine. They're doing it. Yeah. So uh and the brands are still using TikTok and and and directing them back to their websites to complete the purchase. So it's not like they're missing out on on what's happening on platform at the moment. But it's just like, you know, the talk that you hear out of the US and the size of what that's doing there, you know, there's some sparkles in some people's eyes around what the potential could be. So look, well, you can only build what's here. You can like work with what's available. So you do that, and then when new technology comes in, as it always does, you you assess and you adapt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Are there any emerging channels that you personally have got your eye on that you think are really interesting? Like whether it's live shopping or whether it's I don't know, long form video, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Is there anything else that you Yeah, like from a like a platform's point of view, Reddit is the one that you know everyone's tends to talk about at the moment. Reddit's great, it's kind of had this resurgence with, you know, um AI and and you know, that's been a source of truth. So um that's a really interesting one. You know, brands to play there is uh it's almost community management, you know, it's almost like social media comments, community management. You kind of gotta if you want to be there organically and answer questions, you're gonna be there like all the time organically. So that's a big commitment for brands. And obviously you can advertise that.

Physical Retail And Community Comebacks

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Yeah, I think I actually think, and this probably goes against this podcast, but I think physical is the area that will start to come back, you know. This consumer and the next is chronically online. You know, the screen time is alarming. So I think the next connection people are gonna want to have is offline. You know, and then the from a brand point of view, always talking like a brand, like how do you how do you show up there? And does that need to be digital? Must you show up digital or can you be authentic and just be in the physical space and do something for this small group of people that are there? Is that what makes it special? But then the question is well, how does that scale?

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Yeah. How many how many Converse stores do you have at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 40:43

We've got a fleet of about 24 Converse stores across Outlet Infull Price. So yeah, there's there's things that happen there. Done some really interesting stuff in the past. Pre-COVID, we actually opened a store, a Converse store that was called Renew Labs, which was a more community-based store, which was a pretty fun concept that I was able to bring to market, and it was about extending the life of the product that we have.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

So, you know, everyone's got Converse in the back of the wardrobe, like we're trying to keep that in use. So bring it in and we'll clean it up, we'll fix it, we'll customize it for you, and then off you go. Ultimately, commercially didn't stack up, unfortunately. But what did really work was the community piece of it. That people like to come in, like to have a chat, like to talk about their shoes and the stories and and all that sort of stuff in there. So there's there's some nuggets in there that, you know, how do you bring that together? Um, does product play a role? You know, does those communities play a role? Is it skateboarding? Is it basketball? Is it music? Is it whatever? So I think that's the space.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

I love that insight because once you have a good pair of Converse that you've worn in and you've gotten to a comfortable spot, you actually get really upset if they start to fray.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah, that's kind of part of what you are. You've really, you know, and that's that's a beautiful thing about a lot of well, Converse as well, like duck ones as well. Honestly, broken in a pair of docks, you'll you're not getting rid of those. Like you've done the hard yards, yeah. Exactly. But yeah, look, I've got pairs of Converse in the cupboard that are trashed, but I'd never get rid of them because they reflect what I've done in them. We're a bit and you know, and then uh but I think that's been the beauty of the brand. Everyone's like, oh yeah, it's just a shoe until I put it on, and then it becomes part of who I am, what I do. So and that message can translate into many different places.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

I agree,

Turning Offline Moments Into Online Fuel

SPEAKER_00 42:28

I agree. I think I think too, just to challenge your your thing of I think online's got a resurgence, and just to challenge your thought around I think offline's got a resurgence. I think you're absolutely right. But the best brands are the ones who are thinking, all right, well, if people wanting to show up in person, if they want those in-person events, those communities, those activations, those experiences, how do we use that as a content generation activity to feed back online? So we kind of feed this bit of FOMO and to expand the reach because who was it? It was Mike from Scratch talked about this. He ran a big activation in dog park. They do uh dog food.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Yeah, yeah. My dog, my dog eats scratch. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

So there you go. Mike will be very happy. But he had this huge activation plan. I think it went over a couple of days, and it was taking over a park, huge dog setup, everything. And he's like, to be fair, I could have done that for two hours on one morning and had the hype and the event and got the community there, but just filmed everything and got a heap of content and got just as much out of it by bringing that online as having a real world experience for five days or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Yeah, yeah. And well, it's the measure is hard on the physical event.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

It's like, did that move the needle for all of those people if you came over those five days? And is that going to have a longer term effect on my brand and and building that longevity and brand love and community? Versus I need to take this and put it put it online to get reach and and push. People down the front. So and that's random sort of performance, you know? There's the the brand feels like it's the hard one. It's the long game, it's the slow, it's the in the trenches, in the mud, in the park with the dogs versus the you know the the quick sugar hits that you're getting from the response on digital. So look, I think if you think about it, like brand you gotta plant the trees. You gotta put them in the ground, you gotta let them grow. And then performance, you you harvest the fruit. So you can't really do the second one without a first one. If you're not planting trees, you're not harvesting anything. So yeah.

Measuring Brand To Defend Budget

SPEAKER_00 44:37

So for the people listening to this who are big believers in brand and they might be working in larger companies where there is so much focus on conversion and driving direct sales, what advice would you have from your career around keeping brand relevant in a conversation and getting the budgets and getting the teams and the space and the ideas to continue developing strong brands in a culture now where it's very much X dollars equals Y dollars out?

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yeah. Look, and don't get me wrong, that has a place. Absolutely, it has a place down the funnel. But like I said, without the brand, it's hard to push down the funnel, and the funnel only gets you so far, you know, from a conversion point of view. If you're starting fresh with no brand and you're just driving sales, that's cool, but that's probably gonna stop and it's gonna get more expensive until you start building a bit of a backbone of a brand behind that. My advice would be if you're in a business that loves measurement, you need to measure brand. You know, you need to show that the work you do has an impact on where the brand ends up. So getting a baseline on where you're at, I think is really important. Understand what your consumer thinks, do some market research, get a line, propose a plan, put some KPIs on brand, brand lift, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

And you're using track suit for that.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Yeah, we use track suit for that, and we use a another independent um research as well. So, you know, there might be things that you're you're wanting to move the needle on. It doesn't have to be overall brand, it might be in a certain niche. Like we want to, you know, be closer to sports. We want to be associated with sport, you know. So you measure that and then you activate in sport and you give it a period of time and you measure it again and and you prove to your board or your business if it's working or not. So I think that's the advice.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

It's great advice because it's turning brand from something that's fluffy, and I know it's not fluffy, but it's perceived as fluffy. If you're in finance or if you're into logistics, probably someone talking about brand, you're like, oh, can you start now?

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

But if you're going actually, here's the outcomes that we're driving to, here's the projects we've got, here's what I'm committing to. Yeah, it becomes very concrete, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:40

And there's a lot of great, you know, white papers and studies out there that talk about the affiliation between brand investment and commercial output. You know, I know Track Suit have some great white papers out there recently that are uh probably worth a read for people who are trying to um you know make that push inside their business. So it is hard to turn a finance person away from return on investment or however they're measuring versus you know, because brand isn't cheap. You know, it's not cheap to go out and do a campaign and and push that hard or put on an activation or or you know, engage someone at a celebrity level. That none of those things are cheap. So yeah, you kind of need to lack yourself in and give it a crack.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Love it.

Letting Creators Break Brand Rules

SPEAKER_00 47:24

And then question that I wanted to ask you when we're talking about UGC and influencers, how do you protect brand? Because the example that you gave at Patton around the dirty sneaker on the treadmill, tell me about that, because I think that's a really interesting one when it comes to putting guardrails around brand and how much you let go.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Yeah, and that's like as someone who's always been a brand custodian, like sat in the chair and telling people what they can't do and saying no to opportunities and you know, because when you work for a global brand, you get so many people coming like, oh, do this, you should do this, commerce should do this, dock line should do this, and you're like, you say no no no no because none of it's right. And then to then pass on a pair of shoes to someone to be like, do whatever you want can be daunting, but m we've when we first started sort of working with creators, we tried to really steer them on how we wanted to show up, and it just didn't work. You know, it was it wasn't authentic to who they were. So we sort of had to lean into well, this is the person who makes good content in their own voice, so let's hand it over to them and see what they come up with. And then ultimately the surprising things tend to work because they feel real, people resonate with them, and it it's not scripted. You know, we're not brand and advertising has changed from you know, we're not disrupting anymore, we're not stopping people's feeds and saying, look at my ad. We're sort of just trying to be part of the conversation organically. And that's where we're sort of saying things work. So yeah, it is hard to let go of those brand rails. And look, there's some things that you just you get back and you're like, we are never posting that. Like that's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Where do you draw the line?

SPEAKER_01 48:58

There's some clear things that you're like, okay, no drugs and alcohol, no profanity, no this or that. So there's some things that you're like, cool, we're not touching that. But others sometimes you're just gonna try.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

You know?

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Tell us about that the dirty sneaker treadmill one, because that surprised you, didn't it, in terms of the results?

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Yeah, well, there's there was probably two. There was one with uh a woman in a pair of chalks walking on a treadmill with some text over the top. I don't know what she was talking about, but it just resonated and people clicked it, came through and made purchases. Um, but the other one was, and I think this is w what tapped into something real. So she had a pair of convo shoes, and it's kind of what we spoke about before. Once you've got a pair of shoes and you've worn them, you don't want to get rid of them. And the the insole had popped out, or the outside popped out. So she popped it back in, and the comment was like she put over the top, you know, I'll get another six months out of these chucks uh before I get a new pair. So and that resonated with that.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

It goes against all your sales targets.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we want people to buy more shoes, absolutely, but we won't want them to enjoy the ones that they have. So but I think that resonated with Converse consumers because they just they can relate to that. They're like, I don't want these to end, I put so much time and effort into these, I'm gonna stretch it out a bit longer. Um and ultimately people click through and they uh made purchases. So you know, did the opposite of what you said. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

And you mentioned there before around the briefing process, because I think that's really interesting. It's something that a lot of people are struggling with at the moment. Around how much of a brief do you give influencers and content creators? What have you changed in your briefing process and how in depth is your brief to creators?

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Yeah, our briefs are pretty deep. Probably the major change that we sort of made a bit early on, we would have we started with just one brief uh to all the creators. Like there'll be a pool of creators that be like, cool, do this. A lot of these nanos and marcos kind of take things pretty literally. We were finding. So we were getting a lot of content back that looked exactly like the brief. Because we'd be like, here's some things that we like. And so we would get those back. And we're like, uh, we don't like it that much. Like we'd like some other stuff too. So we started diversifying some briefs. Uh we started giving a little bit of direction on well, if you're gonna do a video, like here's some things to consider. If you're gonna do some stills, here's some things to consider. But we're we tend to l put it over to them. Sometimes we're even like, hey, here's some things you've done before that we really like.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Oh, that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Yeah, so you lean into what they do well because ultimately, you know, if you were gonna have content that looks the same, you could you just make it yourself if you know exactly what you're gonna get. But if you're working with creators, lean into what they do well.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

Yeah, I really like that because often when you go, hey, here are some ideas that you might want to consider, they'll go, Well, that's the easiest path to creating content that I know you'll like. I'll just do your ideas, and then you get five unboxing videos.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Yeah. Which hasn't placed. But sometimes you want some diversity and and that set. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

But I love that idea of going, hey, here are three videos that you've done recently that I've really enjoyed.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Yeah, and because they're the ones that resonate with you, so likely they're the ones that the creator enjoyed making.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

And that their audience enjoyed as well. And that's the hard part. Like, while you've got messages to land from a brand point of view, there's other assets that can do that for you. I don't think the creator has to do that for you. Because they're not going to understand it like the brand understands it. And they're probably not going to have the authority that the brand has when they're trying to talk about features and benefits or you know, talking about availability and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

So,

The Future Of UGC And Team Priorities

SPEAKER_00 52:28

question for you. Do you think the era, we are definitely in the peak or around the peak of UGC and creative right now? Do you think it's a long-term trend?

SPEAKER_01 52:39

I don't. I think it'll continue to evolve. You know, this is peak now, but again, this will become distorted. People will start look away and they'll look at something else. So yeah, I I don't know what's next, but I don't think this will be long term. Look, I think it ha it will have a place. Um the piece you mentioned before, which we don't really see in Australia, is the live shopping. Yeah. Maybe that emerges as something that's new. You know, the next generation will really decide what that looks like. You know, those those Gen Alphas and our kids. Yeah. They work differently to what we did and they work differently to how Gen Z did.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

So Mine don't work at all.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

Oh, yeah, mine don't work either. That's labor. It's probably a good thing that they don't work. They they act and they consume differently to rest. So yeah, definitely no work getting done, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

What about the next 12 months for you, Dave, and your team? Where are you focusing on? Obviously, we've just come out of end of financial year and where Peak will be honest before we know it, and Christmas. Where are your priorities in terms of you and your team?

SPEAKER_01 53:39

Yeah, I think it's, you know, a budget reset is always good. We get to plan out now what the next 12 months looks like. Uh we've got some good product stuff coming out, which we're going to focus on uh from a converse point of view, which is exciting. Um, you know, we've just revealed Jack Purcell, which is a an old silhouette in our portfolio. Uh starts to get a bit of attention, which is which is nice. So that's kind of what we're doing there. And then we'll sort of continue to tweak and and and tweeze what we're doing. Yeah, the creator piece will play a big part in what we do. We're looking at some, you know, some activations and partnerships over the next uh 12 months, you know, get into the physical space again, and yeah. Do it all over again.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

So if people are listening and it's r either, you know, got them going, I actually do need to go out and buy another pair of Converse, or they just want to check out what you're doing, maybe reignited a passion for Converse that they may may have had in their tw their their teens. Yeah. What's the best place, do you reckon? Where where would you go to send them to to check out some of your best work?

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Converse.conver.u if you're looking to buy a product, obviously. Uh no affiliate link there, but just come along and have a look. That's where you'll get the biggest breadth of range from a socialist point of view, or across TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Converse underscore NZ across most of those channels. So you'll see a lot of our UGC work there, uh, if that's what you're interested in. Myself, LinkedIn, connect, have a chat. I always love to talk shots with brand people and and what's going on. So yeah, that's how you find us.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Dave, thank you so much. I'm so glad we got to have this conversation in the extended form from our 20-minute chat on stage. Um I love your view over uh brand and how to keep it relevant, not only for what stood out wasn't only for now, but it's actually how do we protect brand and keep evolving brand for future generations. And I don't think we've had that chat on Ad to Card before. So fascinating to hear it from you, especially when you have worked on some of the biggest brands that have had those evolutions over many, many generations. So thank you for sharing all of that.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

No, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

I didn't know exactly where we were going to go with that episode because when we did the patent event, we talked a lot about UDC and creators. And obviously, I wanted to bring that to you as well. But I was stoked that we got to talk around making brands intergenerational. And that's something we haven't covered before on Ad Descartes. And I think as a marketer or a brand expert, that's a really exciting concept to think of how you're building brands that last for your kids or your kids' kids. We probably don't stop to think about that too often.

Three Takeaways And Listener CTA

SPEAKER_00 56:14

All right, here are three things that Dave mentioned that I think you can take straight into your business, whether you are a brand builder or not. The first one is that your customers will show you your next opportunity before any official research does it. Dave reads everything: the comments, the DMs, even the comments on other brands' posts, because he reckons the consumer decides. That's how Converse cottoned on to the embroidery trend and saw that it was taking off within niche communities with floral packs that their customers loved. And it actually never came up in the formal research. It was all on social. So they tested into it. So watch how people are actually using your product and how they're interacting and talking about it in real time. Don't wait for research reports to come in. Run small bets into what you're seeing, and then back to winners. The second one, if you can't measure brand, you're going to lose budget for it. Don't treat brand as a fluffy word. Dave has this battle every single month: brand against a conversion number, and his answer isn't to argue that brand is special or that it's something that other people just can't understand. It's to put numbers and real outcomes on it. He gets a baseline on what customers think, sets brand KPIs, and tracks brand uplift. Always with a tool such as tracksuit. As he puts it, you plant the trees and then you harvest the fruit. You just need to be able to tell people how much fruit you're actually picking. And the third one, with creators, the win isn't the affiliate sale, it's the content itself. Converts recruited micro and nano creators who are already fans, which I love, going after your existing fans, and then seeded them with product in a gifting sense, and then ran that content right back across their own channels. They also had affiliate links for these fans to be able to make a little bit of income off their content. But Dave's approach was that affiliate link, while it was great and it did drive sales, it really wasn't the purpose. It helped pay for the content itself, but the real value is a steady stream of authentic content feeding the machine. So treat creative content as media, and if the affiliate covers its own cost, that's your bonus. Big thank you to our partners at Shopify and Clavio for making Add to Cart possible. We love working with them and being with the best in the business all throughout the year. Now, if you've got something from today's episode, please can I ask you to take the time, either subscribe wherever you are, or leave us a review. Or even if you're on Spotify, ask a question. We'd love that feature. We would just love for other people in e commerce who are nerding out on e commerce to know that this is the place for you to go, to continue learning, and to ask those questions. Alright, until next time, I'll see you on Ad Dicard.