Growth Without Discounts: How Merry People Played the Long Game | #591

Five years ago, Danielle joined us as the founder with a bold idea, a bootstrapped balance sheet, and a firm belief that Merry People would never discount. Fast forward to today and the business looks very different. International revenue now makes up half of sales. The team has grown to more than 30 people. There’s a physical retail store. And Danielle has navigated global expansion, copycats, tariffs, two children, and the emotional weight of scale… still not discounting.

This episode isn’t a victory lap. It’s a check-in on what happens after the breakout. 

Today, we're discussing:

• What actually compounds over five years in ecommerce
• Why never discounting became a brand asset, not a constraint
• How international growth forces you to rebuild your playbook
• The hidden emotional cost of scaling while starting a family
• Why reflection, restraint, and saying no matter more at scale

Connect with Dani
Explore Merry People

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

And internally, I just want to cry. I feel like I am barely surviving in both. We have quite a few people that wear our boots on their wedding day. It just helps, also because we never discount. It just helps you feel more confident going into selling a product.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Hey, it's Nathan Bush or Bushy joining you from the land of the terrible people here in Brisbane, Australia.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

One of the hardest bits about running e-commerce right now isn't necessarily starting an e-commerce business. It's knowing how to grow without losing what made the business work in the first place. That's why I wanted to bring Danny Holloway back to the show. Danny is the founder of Merry People, the Australian brand that turned gum boots into an everyday lifestyle product. Since we last spoke a few years ago, the business has grown significantly, expanding internationally, opening physical retail, broadening the product range, all while holding a firm line on some big decisions like never discounting. In this conversation, Denny walks through what has changed in the business and most importantly, what hasn't. She talks about how her thinking on growth has evolved, tells us what she underestimated as the business became more complex, and tells us how she and the team make decisions now that the stakes and the noise is much higher. If you're responsible for growing an e-commerce business or operating one day to day, this is a really practical look at how to scale without drifting from your original mission. A massive thank you to Shopify and Clavio for supporting Ad Descartes and helping bring these conversations to the e-commerce community. Can you believe that Shopify was a sponsor five years ago when we spoke to Danny for the first time? Incredible support. Here's my conversation with Danny Holloway, founder of Merry People. Danny, welcome back to Ad Descartes. Oh, it's so good. And it's a bit weird to be honest, because we were talking before, but you were the first person we've had back for a second time because we've got an editorial philosophy, and I'm just saying that to sound grown up, um, around having guests on once. But I realized the other, you know, late last year, we've been going for five years, and it would be great to catch up with people and their stories and what's happened since. Because five years, so much can happen in e-commerce. So, how are you to start with? Where where are we at? How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Well, firstly, I'm honored that I'm your first person that you've had back two times. Yeah, a lot has happened in five years. I think, yeah, it was 2020 around COVID. And I have since had two children and the business has grown a lot. Yeah, I was just mentioning before 50% of our revenue comes from the US and UK now. So it's been pretty crazy. Yeah, a lot's been happening.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

I already feel lazy for my last five years compared to what you've just thrown out there for your for your last five.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah, it's been amazing, but also really challenging at times and just times where I felt uh capacity, which is running. So it's been a pretty crazy five years, but I'm here. I still feel merry.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

And you've still got people?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yes, yeah. I've got a bigger team now. So I think around 30, I've got a retail store now as well. So yeah, a lot's happened.

Merry People: Brand Evolution and Product Expansion

SPEAKER_02 3:28

All right. So for anyone who hasn't been listening since I think it was episode number 30 odd, can you give us a quick catch-up on what Merry People is and what you specialise in?

SPEAKER_00 3:39

So Merry People is a well, it's known as a gum boot brand, colourful gum boots. We now do some other products. We now do sandals and clogs, but yeah, we make our products mostly with natural rubber and neoprene, but play a lot with colour. And for me, it's been around trying to create a really joyful brand and a brand that makes people feel good when they discover the brand, but then also whatever they're doing, whether it's with their animals, with their kids at the playground, getting to work, just embracing the mess of life regardless, and being that little spark of joy when they step into their day.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

I know I've seen that spark firsthand. Sarah bought a pair of your new sandals over Christmas. Absolutely loves them. So I've seen that joy firsthand. Expanding your range out because you're right, you were known, well, you are known as that gum boot company. Like you can spot a pair of merry people anywhere. I was lucky enough to run into James from your team and he was wearing them and they stand out, especially when you're wearing kind of a suity material with some gum boots. Adam at the Impact.com event was up there rocking his pink merry people. As you expanded out, what was the decision to expand out beyond the gum boots that you were famous for?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

To be honest, it was pushed from my head of product cast. I wanted us currently to be, I still do, a gum boot business, but you know, we've got this really engaged customer who loves product and colour and the brand and the ethos of how we do business. So it was, yeah, how can we still have our brand DNA, but then dip into some other types of footwear? And yeah, just trying to test things out. So I think being a boot brand that sells, you know, most of its sales throughout winter, it was also to service for help the business in those summer months. So I think that was probably one of the first brand consideration, like making sure it still feels like us and has Tixos buckets of the functionality, the colour, materials, and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

From a sandal perspective, like I could imagine it's pretty hard to reinvent sandals. How did you approach that from a merry people perspective? How did you go? Actually, there is room in the market for sandals and we can do it differently.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah. So for us, we spoke about what do we want from this product? And yeah, there are a lot of sandals out there, and we wanted it to be like the bobby boot of sandals. So had to be functional, it had to be something you could wear all day and still in a functional way. So you can still, you know, wear it down the beach, waterproof. You can wear it on a really long walk, that it washes easily, but then you could also wear it to the pub or to a party or something. It's still got a little bit of that fashion edge. Yeah, for us, it was just finding that. I think when we started the design, I was quite heavily pregnant and Cass was coming to my house, which we've often done because we've kind of tag team with having kids and postpartum life and maternity leave. And I know Cass feels the same way that we want this to be something that we think is really great. So it often takes us a little bit longer with development because we're quite picky and there's a lot of back and forth. But yeah, I think it just helps also because we never discount. It just helps you feel more confident going into selling a product.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Yeah, that makes sense. So it's not just sandals that you've got, you've got other ranges as well that you've introduced alongside the core of the gumboat. When you launch those ranges, do you find that it's like your core gumboot audience coming back to expand their collection into other areas or are you attracting a whole new type of customer in?

SPEAKER_00 7:15

It's both, but generally when we're doing a new product, whether it's a full new product or a new color, we talk about it and think about who the customer is. We've got personas for our target customers and names for them. So we'll use them by their names and say, you know, is this Delling to Abby or Steph or Pam? Or is it one of our newer customers and we've got names for them as well. So yeah, we definitely think about that. For the sandal, we thought predominantly it was going to be a existing customer, like going for the people who have already love colourful footwear and love merry people.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

So that definitely then leans into the marketing efforts and Yeah, because it reminds me of the conversation we had from Stacy with Shewear in that, and we've had a couple of others like that, where you put so much effort into producing a quality product and you really take pride in the materials and the build. And I know we talked about this with the gum boots five years ago, and I know how much pride you put into creating something that's quality that lasts. Getting that second sale can be really hard when you have a quality product from the get-go, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yes, no, absolutely. For us, uh second sale often it's when the person is wearing it, either they just love colour and they're that dopamine dresser, or they wear the product in a more utilitarian way. So they'll be wearing the product daily. So having a variety of colours or yeah, it fits within their lifestyle. So for us, we've been able to get that repeat customer, I think, because of how people wear the product, but definitely adding extensions and categories helps, I think, with that as well.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

You do such an awesome job at building hype for new colour drops. And you've got limited releases, don't you, on your colours? Like once they're gone, they're gone. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Sometimes, yeah. We're trying to be a little bit more scientific with things now. So when we think of it, when we have a new colour, we think about okay, how long do we think this will be in the range for? And then we'll have other colours that we think, okay, this is more speculative and more fashion. We did a kind of a tulle boot last year that was ivy blossom and was kind of green upper and then a pink sole and was quite chunky pink sole. And that was limited edition, sold out really fast. Yeah, just having fun with some more speculative things. We'll do limited editions and other kind of more core colors that are more commercial that will kind of keep in the range for longer in a couple of years.

The Philosophy of Never Discounting

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Great strategy. And I guess that all dovetails into what you mentioned before around never going on sale. It was something that we spoke a lot about five years ago, and that was a key philosophy for you. Obviously, retail kind of had a beautiful period during COVID, and then things got a bit tough, and it's been tough for the last couple of years. Have you been able to hold on to the never going on sale philosophy?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Yes, we have. We've never discounted. So it's actually something that I think our customers really respect of our business and to the point where I would say it's just probably a key thing that we're known for. It's something that I'm really proud that we've been able to keep doing that and something that I hope we do forever.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Yeah. Do you have anything in place of a traditional promotions calendar that others might have to try and boost even like interest or engagement with your audience at key times of the year? Or are you just aiming for a steady year-on-year increase just from being better year on year?

SPEAKER_00 10:43

I guess for us, we think in terms of from e-com, we think about, you know, our peak season is like March, April through July. So we're think trying to bring people, I guess, into the funnel early in the year. And that could be through creative marketing things and lots of different things through new product, through being seasonally relevant, whether it's through weather or what have you. So it's more around trying to create great content. And when it's coming into our seasonally relevant time, yeah. I think we're aware that a lot of the retail businesses have a calendar where they discount and we're just aware that that's a more saturated time to be marketing in general and the types of messages that are out there. But generally during those moments, we'll increase the level of ads or messaging we do around never going on sale and why we do that. And that actually helps and does that performs well for us during that those times. So yeah, I think we try to have a product launch or something which is that we think is like how do you drive interest at that time. So we just try and plan it like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Most retailers would kill to have a peak season where you've got your peak season when ad costs are at their lowest.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah. Well, I've actually not really thought about it in terms of yeah, when they're selling during Black Friday and what have you the costs of advertising during that time. But for us, it's good also, it's great with planning. You kind of have a good view of the previous year. And yes, we'll look at okay, why did that perform the way it did last year? Was it like a weather anomaly or what was it? But you're not getting the spikiness that you would if you were to be using a discount strategy.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah. Do you notice that during Black Friday, even though you don't discount, is there a knock-on effect of customers having their wallets open, ready to shop, that you benefit from? Like ignoring the fact that it's Christmas, but otherwise, are people more willing to shop and you get some of that at full margin anyway?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yes, we do. So I think it is just, and well, whether people have been holding out and thinking, oh, I might get a sale. Oh, they never go on sale. Oh, okay, great. They're newer to the brand and then they just purchase. Or yes, they're in the mindset of shopping, they're doing all their Christmas shopping, and they are just in that mindset. So yeah, we get that knock-on effect. But definitely during Black Friday, we do still get an increase in sales.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

You do a really good job though on your site of advertising the fact that you never go on sale. So I think there's a ticker that goes over the home page and even on the product page under the images, it's the first thing that you see. There's a little call out saying, we never go on sale before you even get to the price. And I guess that must take a lot of the objections away straight away to go, well, there's no reason to even play around with things like putting things in cart and hoping for an abandoned cart email or like waiting for two weeks and hoping they go on sale. It's like, if you're gonna get the sale, might as well get the sale now.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, that's what why we do it. They know that that's the best price that they will get. And just I think helping alleviate some of those restraint or like questions that people might be having, especially yeah, when they're new to the brand and you're doing this cold advertising where they might not know that.

Content Strategy: Internal vs External

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Yeah, well, well done on holding your ground there. Like I love seeing that. I think it's fantastic, especially when you've got an original product and a quality product to be able to hold that. You mentioned their content. I'm keen to get your perspective on how content has changed in the last five years. I feel we've moved a lot from a lot of internal content. And I know that you were, and I'm not sure if you still are, doing a lot of founder content, a lot of team content. Are you finding there's a lot more pressure to go external with content, whether that be partnerships or influencers or other ways to get the message out?

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yes, we are doing a lot more partnership and influencer, content creator ads, and content in general. And I think it is just adding to that diversity of content. And yeah, we definitely do still do our stuff internally and found content and all of that. But I think it just helps the ads library, if you will, or even just our own content, have more of that diversity and be talking to lots of different people.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

When you're aiming for diversity, how big do you think in terms of diversity? Because you said before, you've got your personas and you know your audience very well after so many years in business. How far do you push your content? Do you often try like people who you're like, I don't think this is our core audience? But we may as well give it a go. Like, do you take many risks or experiments?

SPEAKER_00 15:19

We should more actually. We have been pretty, I wouldn't say prescriptive, but it's been, you know, this is who we think our type of customer is for this particular season, for this particular product. Go find people that we think that is speaking to that person. And then we'll have some like a narrative doc that we will give to that content creator slash influencer. And they can follow, we might say, you know, this is the type of narrative we want. You want you to say this, this is, or we could just say, do whatever you think, like you have a go using that content as well. I think there's probably definitely scope to explore some more outside of the box type content creators to what we typically work with. But yeah, for now, that's what we've been doing to date.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

I could imagine though, with gum boots, you know, you must get surprised at all the ways and places that your boots can show up. Like you mentioned it before. It can be on the farm, it could be a music festival, could be at a pub, could be at a workplace. From a content perspective, have you been pleasantly surprised by any ways that someone's taken your brand and shown it in a new light that you're like, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way before?

SPEAKER_00 16:28

I think what I do, I get really pleasantly surprised when I see all the cross-section of the types of people who wear married people and where they wear it in yet so many different user cases all around the world. But I think probably the one thing that will never, like I always just stop and feel really blown away by is when people wear them on their wedding day. So when we have quite a few people that wear our boots on their wedding day, and like whether they're getting married in the country or it just happens to be a really wet day when they're getting married, and so they'll have the whole bridal team in our boots, and I just find that like such an honor to the people on one of the most special days of their lives that they would wear merry people. Like I love flicking through our tabs, like posts and seeing all of that. I think it's insightful for me to have a good grasp on that, but then it's also just a really great feeling to see the amount of people who know of your brand and love it and how they engage with it is yeah, is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

My head's spinning at the moment thinking about TikTok shop, it's at the top of my mind at the moment because probably going to land sometime this year in Australia. And just the ability to hand over control to your audience to be able to go, hey, if you're wearing a stagus and you might earn a bit of coin, if it goes well, I can imagine for you that's a huge opportunity and a little bit scary as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Absolutely. But my thing is, yeah, if people love your product enough to post it on their channels and they're going and creating that content which takes time and all of that, and it's generating a commercial benefit for you, then yeah, I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

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SPEAKER_02 19:08

You mentioned earlier 50% of your sales now coming internationally or soon to be international. That is absolutely massive, and congratulations for that. What kind of markets are you most prevalent in?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

So we are in the US and UK and outside of Australia. We're in New Zealand as well. But yeah, we sell globally all around the world, but anywhere outside of the UK and the US comes from the Australian 3PL. But yeah, everything else for those markets go there. So yeah, it's been exciting, scary, daunting.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

I'd say last year must have been a nightmare for you with the tariffs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah, it definitely was. It was actually, yeah, exactly this time last year. And I think in December, I actually got a call from a mentor of mine in the US, like telling me I think this is gonna happen. So we were somewhat we Had some a little bit of preparation. And then we were with a company that did they were on the border. I don't know if any of your guests have spoken to this, but on the border of Canada and the US, the de minimis was$800 or less. So a lot of companies were set up, or a lot of three PLs actually set up on the border of Canada and shipping into the US under the de minimis of less than$800, which was us. So when that was removed and then the tarot really increased, it was a lot of scenario planning and discussions and moments where I never said this out loud, but internally, because I didn't want to feel knee-jerky for the business because you have people where their roles are around US. And but internally I also at times was thinking, is this a legitimate? Is this all getting too hard now? Is this a market that we should move out of? But we're actually doing really well there now and exceeding budget. So yeah, it was just a really turbulent time around the pace of the change, which was just unforecasted and unprecedented, I should say, also. And it was just when your commercials are changing so much and you're kind of continually updating the margin sheet so much around tariffs. And it was a little bit unsettling. But since probably mid-year, things have settled down. And we actually have two staff over there now. Well, we had one staff member at the time who had just hired, and now we've got another staff member there. So yeah, it's been really great to see that our strategy is coming to fruition and yeah, starting to yield its results, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Have you had to change the positioning or the marketing message for the US, especially, or is it very similar to how you go to market here in Australia?

Localizing Positioning For The US

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Oh, it's very different. And that's probably one of the big things I've learned from growing an international brand is that you can't look at what you're doing here and think that your product or your messaging or anything really in how you sell and operate in that market, that it just translates exactly the same way because it just really doesn't. And over there, we brought on a creative agency who have refined our customer positioning. Because we were, you know, a couple of people, we would go to trade shows over there, go over there for a couple of weeks, come back, would be getting insights and then feeding them into marketing. But then it just wasn't enough to really understand the market and put together a legitimate go-to-market strategy. So we actually had someone who was a customer of ours who was in a head of marketing position at quite a large outdoor retailer here. She was moved over there for her husband's work and she actually contacted us and said, I'm a customer of yours. I love your product. I really think that I could, like, I'd love to work with you and I feel like I could do great things with you in this market. And there's a bit of like, oh, okay, I don't know if we're at this stage yet. But we started in a consulting type position and yeah, now it's kind of led to a head of country position. And that has been really pivotal, like the positioning and even like having more credibility with retailers. I think that they've got someone they call on their time zone that they know that isn't going to be just going back to Australia and worrying about Australian things, like they're there for the US market. And I think it helps that grow as well, but definitely helping with language, how people style, boots, all the messaging, and just having that as a core focus. Because I would say up until that point, a lot of our conversations were Australia-centric and it was, oh, and what are we doing for the US? And what are we doing for the UK? Was so I think having that person who is fighting for the US PL, and we all are, but the one that's like that's their front of mind, and yeah, having that in your leadership team, I think's been really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah. And you mentioned their wholesale in the US. Is there a different channel strategy in the US? Like, is it essential to be in wholesale to get your brand name out there into the US given how big it is and the population there? Or do you have to consider Amazon? You know, from a channel strategy, what do you have to do differently there versus here?

SPEAKER_00 24:20

I and maybe this varies depending on the product or the brand. But for us, I think that the retail strategy is the most important out of all the three markets in the US to be in retailers. And it's that point of discovery and also that way for people to have the credibility in your brand, I think, especially as an Australian brand. You know, when I was over there at the end of last year and talking to people about merry people and saying that we're from Australia, there definitely is people's eyes light up and prick up that, oh wow, Australia. So I feel like there is a really positive sentiment about Australian brands over there. But I would also say that being in the right retailers that talk to your customer is really important. Well, for us, it has been in getting that credibility. Like US is obviously so big and so many different types of customers. And so for us, it's been really being so narrow in who we're going after, where do they live, and then what is the retailers that talk to those people and going after them. And then it's like a trickle effect from there. So yeah, we've been doing trade shows, I think at least like two a year or two kind of seasons where we might do a couple together here and a couple towards the end of the year. And it's a great way for people to regularly see you and also just get all those insights from retailers as well. So yeah, we're actually going into like a quite a big retailer there for the very first time. We're going into free people, so it's quite a big retailer, which is a little bit scary or exciting. So yeah, I was at the shoe show and got to they kind of came up and just started talking to me and had their name badge kind of covered, weren't showing their name badge of who they were. But in my mind, I was like, I don't know any of these retailers. So I was just like talking to MS, which I would anyway speak to people in the same way, but I feel like we were talking about non-work related and then eventually found out she was like, Yeah, I'm from Free People. I was like, oh my goodness, I actually know your brand and I loved your stuff. So that's really exciting. We're just going onto the e-comm site and then which we've done in other like in the UK, we're also we started with a bigger retailer there as well, and now we're in 30 of their stores. So I think it is a great way to kind of prove yourself out and see if the product really resonates with their customers. Yeah, we're really excited about that opportunity to get our brand out in front of so many people.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

I can imagine it's a uh godsend for the seasonality leveling out as well across different territories.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yes, no, it is. I think there's still definitely times where there's a cash crunch where you're kind of waiting for something to kick in somewhere. But no, definitely I think it does really help with the seasonality. I think it's just internally sometimes I feel like before the US and UK peak season would finish in Australia, and then we're kind of like, oh here we go again. Then but it's like, all right, we're back in. So it's probably more from an operational thing where it just feels like a little bit more hectic internally. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

As you've expanded out globally, have you had any problems with dupes or knockoffs or imitations for married people?

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yes, we get all the time. We have people copying exactly our colourways, exactly our language on our website. We've had people do that, contact our retailers and tell them that they will give us them a better margin than us. And yeah, some things I'm actually just quite shocked from an integrity. And I just I'm like, who are these people? Like, how could you do that? I used to get pretty hung up on it. Yeah, and I was started the whole, you know, sending legal letters and things, but then I just got over it and I just said to my team, you know what, this is gonna happen, and we just have to be better and we just have to have a better product and a brand that people want to purchase from us. And if there's a person in a store or where they're shopping online and they've got product A and product B, and like we want them to choose merry people because we're the better offer and they want to wear merry people, not because we're first to market. So I've just kind of continually reiterated that message that we just have to try and be the better offering and try and be the best in what we're doing. Yeah, because you just have to let go of it, but it is really hard at the start. And when you see people directly copying things, you kind of, yeah, it really hurts, actually. But the more it happens, the more I've just realized it's inevitable and I just have to move forward. Otherwise, I'm gonna be spending just all my time and that's gonna take me away from doing what I love and being creative and growing the business. If I'm just spending time and money on that.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Sad, but I love your approach. You know what I mean? Like I uh it's really sad that that is the reality of it. But the focus on that you've given the team on look, if we just keep being better and better versions of ourselves, that's the best way for us to compete rather than try and stamp on every fire that's around us.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Absolutely.

On Becoming a Solo Founder

SPEAKER_02 29:18

One of the things we talked about when we actually called the episode that you originally did way back five years ago was called Bootstrapped and Brave. That's what we titled it. I'm really curious. In your journey as a founder over the last five years and and moving forward, you've had some big changes. You've got now got a young family, and we interviewed Nick, your husband from Homie, you know, a couple of years after you. How have you evolved and changed as a founder over the last five years as your life has shifted and moved and the chaos and you know, the disruption and everything that happens there? And I don't know, I'm putting words in your mouth, but maybe, you know, different focuses as those seasons change. How have you navigated that?

SPEAKER_00 29:57

With like difficulty in true transparency, when Nick and I became parents, I guess I was probably a little bit naive to what that would involve. In not that because you know, I was surrounded, my my sister had kids, I babysat, but probably just that newborn life that I was a little bit naive to. And I thought, you know, I'm gonna feed baby, put baby down, work, but then that just wasn't the case. But then I hadn't set my life up to have I couldn't, only had four staff at that point. And I was still doing all the design. I was I just brought on James, I was training him on how to manage cash, ordering, like how to undo payroll, all of that. Like when I was, you know, early days postpartum, and I was just like probably every couple of weeks almost like actually having breakdowns of like how do I do this? Yeah, I I found it pretty challenging, just a steep learning curve. And it wasn't as if my work at Mary People was linear or that it was the same as it was a year before, even two months before. There was constantly new problems. I think the year I had our son, I went from, yeah, like four employees to 13 employees. So I was doing the hiring, some firing in there as well, and creating processes, ways of working, troubleshooting all the stuff. And it was quite a lonely, yeah, just a hard time because I think particularly for a brand like Mary People, and when you are so passionate about what you do, and then you just go into that vortex of growth, and it was a real, you know, grew 300% that year, and you're on this just really steep learning curve on both sides, and people on the outside are just really celebrating your life and going, oh my goodness, Danny, like this, this, this, and wow, you know, Jack's gorgeous, and you're a mom. And so I would just say, like, yeah, yeah, no, it's all great. And internally, like, I just want to cry. I feel like I am barely surviving in both and felt like inadequate in both. So I think I went through like that journey and kind of I started to get back into it and then had another baby. And yeah, just that in and out where yeah, you just feel like you're playing catch-up a lot. And I think particularly as a solo founder, found it quite isolating because there's only so much that you can share with your team. And then you kind of also don't want to burden, you know, you don't talk about a lot of things with your family or your wider or your friends, even that are outside your world about what truly is going on internally, because it's like probably too much for that conversation. So you just hold a lot internally. So I think I found it quite amazing in many ways, but then also, yeah, really hard to kind of get through at times.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

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SPEAKER_02 33:40

You mentioned there around being quite a lonely journey from other founders that you've connected with. Do you think that's a common thing that especially a lot of women go through? I know on our podcast we've had a lot of female founders who have started a business when they've had a baby because they've got, you know, time to think. They go, Oh, this is great. I've quit my job and I've got all this time to your point that I can actually start this. And then they go, Oh, wow, I've like got two lives going on here, or they've transitioned from being purely focused on the startup into now going, oh, I've got to adjust, I've got this other thing going on now. Are you finding that that's a common feeling, that loneliness of that experience from a founder's perspective?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah, I do. I think when you talk about it more and you just share it, and I think that's something that I'm trying to be more intentional about, particularly when I meet women or people that are thinking about having kids, just to be like, if you ever want to catch up for a coffee or ever anything, or how I set up the business or what I did during those times, I've definitely got a lot of learnings there. I don't know. At the time it was also just so hectic, and I don't think I even had the time to even stop. And yeah, it was just like there was always something and you just had to keep going. And you know, with young kids, it's just yeah, it was what it was and is. Like I put a two and a four-year-old now, it just is, it is still hectic. But I think I'm I actually recently turned 40 and I feel like I've had some kind of there's been a shift around like, okay, you decade, you need to be more intentional, and you can't just get swept on this in the machine of merry people. Like you're the one that is in control of this, and you can say no to things, or you can do this to how you want to do it, and curate your life as well around that. And you don't need to try to please everyone or wherever that is, like try to think of myself first and go, what does great look like for me in terms of merry people and family, and really challenging myself around why do you want to grow and why do you want to do this stuff and yeah, even the international stuff, like making sure there's some constraint there as well. So I think that's been great to have those feelings. I'm not sure if but I do I had mines with my girlfriends on my actual 40th, and they even said they're like, Yes, 40, and they're all mums, and yes, she is amazing. Like something happens when you get this new lease on life, and you go, Yeah, I want to do all this now. So that's definitely happened for me, and wanting to make sure I have that right level of merriness and joy and spark in my life. Because I think when that happens, that then all the other stuff is great. That's what I'm trying to focus on right now.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

I love that. And on the meriness and the spark, because you've still got a two-year-old, four-year-old, thriving business, growing business. I can assume that it's still chaos at certain times. When you are feeling that, where do you go for inspiration or help? Like to kind of pull yourself up out of that. Because if you're leading a team like you are and you're building a brand still, you're two young kids. How do you stay inspired? Where do you go to?

SPEAKER_00 36:50

I exercise a lot, but I probably change. I used to love the high-intensity stuff, but I used to run a lot when I was younger. But I've started like over the last probably five, six months, just slow running again. And I feel like that has been really great for my mental health and just for me to step through things in my head and just see it like wherever my brain will go. And yeah, I know that I definitely get a lot from that and prioritizing that. And so Nick and I both know that exercise is an important part of both our lives. So we make sure we both can fit that in with the kids. And I definitely even think, yeah, with the kids, like just being when I'm a present mum and I'm not working and I'm not trying to do anything else, I'm just with them, you know, my phone's in the front room. I get a lot of joy and happiness out of that. And just playing the games and living in their world, I think gives me perspective and a lot of happiness. So I think just doing that. I've also been trying to be more spontaneous and just saying yes to more things, or let's do this now. Like, let's, what about we do this this weekend? Or finishing work early, let's go do that. And just trying to do some of the stuff that I'm privileged in my position to be able to do that, like to be like, yeah, I'm gonna finish work at 4 p.m. and let's go get some margaritas, Nick.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Isn't it crazy when you create this business of it? Like you create this business and you're like, I'm gonna do this because I'm gonna found it and I'm gonna be the master of my own destiny. I'm gonna finish at four o'clock. Like in that group.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Well, do you know what? I did that on Friday and I actually caved and told the team today. But it was because where I was working, I was working in a co-working space on Friday and the power went off because it was a really hot day in Melbourne. And I went home and yeah, they were like, let's go to the pub, got 10 little margarita specials. And I felt so guilty. I was at the pub, we just we got followed chips and I'm like, Nick, I feel so bad. Like, the team are working and I'm here having a margarita, and I came in and told the team, they're like, Nah, Danny, we were all having drinks in the office at 4 p.m. as well. So I was like, okay, I don't feel it was bad. But um, yeah, so no, it is crazy that yeah, you think we'll start a business and not work as much as what you would that you actually do end up working, obviously, as you know, a lot more. But you just obviously can have the flexibility. So I think when those moments present themselves, or you feel it, or you're like, actually, I've done heaps of stuff this week and I feel cooked, like you should just stop or do something fun, or what is it? Like, I love retail and love looking at shops and fashion. And so whether it's I yeah, go look at a few cool stores I really like that are near me to get some inspiration, have a chat, those sorts of things. I get a lot from that.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

That's cool. Well, thank you for sharing your experience, especially the personal experience that you shared there. I mean, most people won't ever go through what you've navigated yourself, you know, you know, building a business that's growing international at 300%, while building a team, having two young kids, something really unique to you. But I think there's a lot of people who are going out there trying to balance it all. Which who will connect to to what you've done and to hear that you know, that it wasn't easy, that what it looked like on the outside wasn't the same as how it felt inside will be really refreshing for them. So thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

No, that's okay. I hope it doesn't discourage anyone because it also is really amazing and there are just times we do have to grind it out more than others and it can just be so worth it. But yeah, it's just having more eyes wide open, I guess, about those things and that it's not always smooth sailing. Yeah.

Goals for the Future

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Well, Danny, that was incredible. So nice to catch up with you after five years. What an amazing five years you've had, and the team has had the growth internationally, the product expansion, sticking to your guns around not discounting, which I especially love. If we look ahead, say for the next 12 months, what's the priorities for you and the team there?

SPEAKER_00 40:53

So for me, it's growing, particularly in Australia, it's growing the brand more, which is, I think we are going to try and pull back on spend and do more brand activations and more customer events. So that's something we've started doing over the last couple of years. And when I've gone to the US and UK, that's been quite pivotal in I think creating the strategy. It's doing these customer events where we invite customers and have a really great experience with them. Maybe the same way you might see influencers go to events that we're putting on these events for our customers and talking to them and learning and sharing.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Amazing. Plus international, plus wholesale. Seems like it's not going to get any quieter anytime soon.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yeah. Well, I think it's just priorities, strategy, and saying no, what what what do you do and what don't you do, and trying to have fun and enjoy it as well. Because I think that's just the most important part.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Yeah. Love it. Well, Danny, thank you so much for rejoining us on Ad To Cart. I hope we can do it again in another five years. I'm sure the story even gets bigger and better from there.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Thank you for having me and congratulations. Also, I've loved watching you and yeah, Ad To Cart Hero. You've done such a great job and had so many amazing guests. So, yeah, I feel really honored to be brought back for a second time.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Very lucky to do what we do and to speak to amazing people like you. So thank you for joining us. And uh we'll hopefully speak again in five years.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Sounds good. Thanks, Nathan.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

All right, before we go, here are three practical takeaways from this conversation with Danny that I think are worth sitting with post this chat. Firstly, growth only works when you're clear on what the brand will not compromise on. Pricing and positioning decisions get harder as you scale, not easier. Secondly, complexity needs to earn its place. New products, channels, or markets need to clearly improve the customer experience or the economics of the business, otherwise, they quietly slow the business down and take you away from the mission. And thirdly, good e-commerce performance comes from decision quality, not constant change. Knowing what not to optimize is often your competitive advantage. If any of those sparked questions or debate for you, the conversation continues inside the Add to Cart community. That's where e-commerce operators are unpacking exactly these kind of trade offs together. You can join us for free on addducart.com.au. Thanks for spending your time with me today. I'll see you next week on Ad to Cart.