Meet Dr. Grillz: The Dentist Selling $5K Custom Pieces for Your Teeth | #589

In this episode of Add To Cart, Bushy chats with Maheer Shah, founder of Dr Grillz, a.k.a a dentist who turned a cultural obsession into a global, made-to-order ecommerce business. What began as a passion project quickly became something much bigger: a brand sitting at the intersection of self-expression, trust, and technology, built without a typical target market or ecommerce playbook.

Today, we're discussing:

• Building visibility for a product that doesn’t fit a traditional ecommerce persona
• Why psychographics matter more than demographics when your audience is everywhere
• Turning a high-trust, bespoke product into a scalable ecommerce system
• The role of culture, emotion, and status in purchase decisions
• Using technology like 3D printing and AR to remove friction, not add hype
• Why passion-led ideas aren’t “too niche”; they’re often the most defensible

Connect with Dr. Maheer Shah
Explore Dr Grillz

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

It was actually a porn stuff found my Instagram and she was like, Can you make me grills as well? No one wants to buy cheap jewelry and no one's to say I spent money on cheap jewelry. They want to say I spent 50 grand on my grills. You need your like 10,000, 5,000, 10,000 really good loyal fans, and you have an amazing brand and business.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hey, it's Nathan Bush or Bushy, joining you from the land of the terrible people here in Brisbane, Australia. Welcome back to Add to Cut. Today's episode is one of the most unique e-commerce stories we've ever told. When the idea for today's guest came across my desk, I was so intrigued. I could not say no. I had to know how this business works. What I didn't expect out of today's guest was how to build a business without search volume, ads, even traditional e-commerce playbooks. Most of what today's guest has been done has been custom and learnt and built organically without the reliance on the normal playbook that we would have in e-commerce. So without further ado, today's guest is Dr. Mahir Shah. He is a qualified dentist and also the founder of Dr. Grills. That's right, grills, as in the things that you see in rappers' teeth, the metal, the jewelry, the shining things. He actually sells these online and he's built a premium custom grills business, which sits at the intersection of dentistry, jewelry, culture, and commerce with average orders of around$700 and reaching a wide range of people from rappers to porn stars to kids who just want to look cool. It's a fascinating business, but it goes a lot deeper than just being an Instagram fad. And that's what I found fascinating today. Now, if grills aren't your thing, and honestly, I don't understand why they're not, if you are just interested in e-commerce, you are going to get so much out of this still because Mahir talks about how to create demand when customers aren't actually looking for what you sell. He's doing something that most people don't even know exist, but kind of want. How to turn trust and credibility, he's a dentist, and how to use that as a conversion lever. And how to approach things from a system first perspective while delivering a really personal customer experience. Dr. Mahirshah really surprised me with the depth of experience that he's looking to give his customers in not just giving them something shiny to put on their teeth, but to make sure that their whole mouth health is in good working order. All right, before we get into today's episode, I want to give a quick shout out to our sponsors, Shopify and Clavio, who are back on board for 2026. Thank you very much sponsoring Add to Cart. We love your support and appreciate having you on board. We couldn't think of two better technology partners to have in e-commerce. All right, let's get into it. Here is our conversation with Dr. Mahir Shah, founder of Dr. Grills. Dr. Mahir Shah, welcome to Add to Cart. Thanks for having me, Nathan. Oh, absolute pleasure. I am so pumped. When I saw your story come through from our producers and I had a look at your website, I was like, holy moly, we've never had someone like you on the show before. So I've got a thousand questions for you about what you're building with Dr. Grills. But if I was to say to you at the start, you are a qualified dentist now running an e-commerce business as well as your dental practice, which is called Dr. Grills, the e-commerce business. Tell me about how those worlds came together. How are you managing dentistry and e-commerce at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

It's a great question. So the beauty of what Dr. Grills is it's very organic. It all started really naturally. It was just me, my two best friends. We were on a little tour over Sydney and Melbourne, just following our favorite DJs at the time. And then I actually won backstage passes because we were going to go see them three shows in a row. That's because we're going to miss them in Purrh. So me and my buddies were like, let's go to Sydney and Melbourne. We've watched them for three shows. Who are your DJs? Would we know them? These guys are called flostradamists. They're like kind of the fusion between EDM music and hip-hop music. Okay. You're way too cool for me. Yeah, it was really underground back at the time. Like the first time we saw them was 20 bucks for the gig, and it was like one of the best gigs I ever saw. But I won backstage passes to meet them because I was going to see them like for the three shows. And then as soon as we walked in, they all had grills in. And then I was, I'd just graduated from dental school, maybe I was working about four months. So I was like, oh my God, where did you guys get these grills? And they're like, dude, this is so hard to find. We had to go to the hood in America to, you know, get these grills. And then, you know, the whole show, like last show, I was just kind of like sitting in my mind, like, I can't believe these are so hard to find. And then we had a little kick-on, little after party with my buddies. And I was sitting there and I was like, I think I should get into making grills. And both of them were like, if you can do that, I'm gonna buy them straight away. And one of my friends, his Instagram handles Perth White Boy, truly Perth White Boy. And uh he borrowed him, he scrounged all this money from his parents to buy, he was my first customer. So then I just took a few photos of the boys, took a few photos of the grills, made a little and the name Dr. Grills just like fell into my lap that night. They were just like, You should be Dr. Grills. You're like, you're the man for it. So I just started on Instagram and I just put pictures of this up, and that was that was it. I didn't know anything about business. I'd only just done dental school, so like I was a certified nerd, but but that was about it, right? And um, I was good at getting grade, good good grades in high school, but again, like I always found business came very naturally to me. I don't know if it's like an Indian thing. I know my surname Shah means trader in like uh in Sanskrit, and it's like we've had that name for a thousand years. So basically my ancestors have just been traders. And and Mihir obviously means grills, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:45

So grills trader.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Mihir actually means expert. So expert, expert trader. Yeah, expert trader. So that's my name. So I just had to give it a crack. And then I started this Instagram, didn't know anything about marketing, didn't know anything about sales, operations, all these things. And then some people, it was actually a porn stuff found my Instagram, and she was like, Can you make me grills as well? And then that's when the journey whole started. So it was super organic, super natural, not forced, and it's just taken me on the rider for a lifetime.

Understanding Grillz: The Art and Science

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Wild. Oh, I can't wait. I've got so many questions there, especially around your audience and some of the stories that you've had. But I know nothing. You say you know nothing about marketing when you first started. I know nothing about grills. How do they actually work?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

So people have been putting gold on their teeth for like a thousand years. This is not a new thing. This humans have just been obsessed with the idea, and not all humans, some humans, the putting some how do we put a diamond or a gem or some gold on our teeth? It's just like this ultimate status symbol, right? Like a tattoo involves some pain, piercing involves some pain, but to get gold in your teeth, and especially permanently, that is like a, you need an artist to do that, but it's some pain involved. Sometimes you destroy the tooth historically to do that. So people have been obsessed about this thing for a while. So the whole point of grills was how can we do this without damaging your teeth? So the whole thing's a removable set. So it's like kind of like a little helmet that's slide on your tooth or a couple of teeth, and then you can wear it when you want. But okay, so they're removable. They're removable. That's the whole point. My job's a dentist. Like, I don't want to be destroying teeth just to make them look cool. So if we can do grills where you just take a mold and then you clip it on when you want, take it off when you you know you don't want it, go to work. That's the perfect solution. Oh, because I was about to say you're not wearing grills right now. Do you rock them on the weekends? I do, I do, I love them. I have the problem is my teeth have shifted a little bit, so all my old sets don't fit anymore. So I need to get some new ones made. But um, I've got to get onto it, to be honest.

Target Market: Who Wears Grillz?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

So you you talked there around your demographic and obviously your first customers there being musicians and porn stars. How do you describe who your target market is today?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

I've done a couple of business courses since I've started, and the that was always the first question. Identify your perfect ideal customer, right? You gotta once you I figure out your ideal or your typical customer, then you can build your whole brand around that. But that was the challenge I always had was I had such a mixed bag of people that would come and come find me. I get, you know, guys in their 50s and 60s. I've had ladies in their 50s and 60s who are like, my whole dream is always had to have one gold tooth, and now I can finally get it. And then obviously I get the young guys, I get the SoundCloud rappers, I get just the biggest mixed bags. So I find the best way to distill it is it's like a psychographic thing. It's like, what is the psychology behind these kind of people fundamentally, which is boldness, self-expression, you know, good sense of self-identity, self-image. They're willing to put, you know, be different. That's the thing they all had in common.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Is there a little bit of that they do want that look and they want that self-identity, but they also want a little bit of safety in terms of that's why they would come to you as a professional dentist rather than go to a backyard operation?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Exactly. Yeah, that was usually the first thing they'll say, because I asked, where did you find me? And they said, Oh, you know, I found your page online and I like that you're a dentist, so that's why I've chosen to go with you. That was very commonly, that's what I heard.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

And how do you maintain that trust? Because I could imagine trust is really key here, with you at the forefront of this as a dentist, but also trying to keep the coolness of Dr. Grills. You know what I mean? Like, there's almost two things going here is like the dentist is the person that you usually go to as the sensible option. You're always like maintaining your teeth. It's the long-term thing. Whereas grills, they're fun, they're flashy. How do you transfer your credibility as a dentist into the coolness of Dr. Grills?

SPEAKER_00 9:34

So, depending on who it is, like number one, as a dentist, I make sure I'm up to date with all my training. Like, I've taken a lot of training after university. I've spent twice as much as I did in university, after university, on courses on, you know, veneers, smart makeovers, how to build new bites, full mouth reconstruction. Like, done a lot of courses. But the coolness, I think, that has to come from something authentic. And like I really feel this brand is authentically me. And that is the feedback my bestest, my closest friends say. Like, this is just you, this is what you're about. You've been obsessed with music since I've met you. You're into hip hop, you're just like that character. So I find that comes naturally for me because this is like my passion. Like it really is my passion. And it's also, I'm such a blessing to kind of be given this brand and be able to take it somewhere. Like, I think it's the coolest thing in the world, putting gold in your teeth.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

What's the weirdest request that you've had so far?

SPEAKER_00 10:23

One always pops to mind when someone asks me that. I get a had a heavy metal drum, I think he was from Tasmania, and uh he sent me a sketch, and he all he wanted was black grills with the one-inch spike that came out of each tooth. And he drew every tooth. Every tooth. And I still don't know how he worked because I never got a picture, I never met him. His manager did all the correspondence, so he had literally like a one-inch spike coming out of each of his 10 teeth. We had 10 teeth on each piece, and it was so hard to cast because to make it all in one unit, you can imagine things just get thin, they can chip, they break, they warp. So we ended up having to 3D print it with a lab in New Zealand, and then they sent it back for us to finish. That was a mission, but yeah, I'd say that was the coolest one. And we've done a couple of other crazy, crazy designs, but nothing came compared to that, I'd say.

Capturing Transformation: The Customer Experience

SPEAKER_01 11:09

And do your clients normally come back to you with the after pictures? Because I could imagine there's a lot that goes into it when you're designing and you're building these, and you're like, I just want to see them on the person because it's the grills that's attached to the person that really makes them come to life. Does that happen naturally?

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Not as much as I would like. I like would hound them, I'll say, I'll give you a discount, I'll give you a voucher if you can just send me a picture in. Once a lot of people get their grills, they just, you know, they vanish. And that's why I'm trying to do as much in-house as I can. So when they have their fitting, the day of their fitting, we try to make it an experience. Maybe whiten their teeth before they get their grills fit in. We take a bunch of pictures. Like I want to make that a big deal because that's where all my best content will come from, which is my best marketing. And also it's the best part of the sales journey or their customer experiences. You know, their grills are so non-functional, right? So it's all about the emotion behind them and how it makes you feel and the build-up, and they've had to wait for a couple of weeks, whereas most of the jewelry you just buy online or you buy the jewelry shop and you leave. This is some patience involved. So the build-up is really intense. That's the whole reason I would love to have a shop one day is to capture that, capture that moment. Because once the grills go in, you know, you want to see the transformation. That's kind of what it's about as well. It's about creating that transformation within someone of like a zero-to-hero, where you put the gold teeth in and the way you feel, the way you feel about yourself really transforms.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

It must be hard because there'd be so much word of mouth and talkability when that moment comes. So if you've got a friend who rocks up and they've suddenly got grills, you're like, holy shit, that's really cool. Like, and you'd want to know the story of why and how and who did it. And all of that would happen a lot of the time without you even being part of the conversation, which makes it hard for you, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

It does, yeah. And I now I'm finding work where, you know, my reputation's kind of getting out there and someone says, I heard about you. They booked in straight away, and then they're like, I just don't care how much I have to pay, I just want to get it done, which is good as well, because I'm not having to be involved in the sales experience. But there's some moments like you mentioned where I you'd love to just capture what's going on there.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

So talk me through the process because from what I can see, and you mentioned there, you know, that really involved process. Your website is a WordPress website at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

At the moment, we're doing a complete rebuild of the website, which has taken forever, but it's nearly ready. There's a lot more features we're adding to it. What are you moving to? So it's still going to be based on WordPress, but we're going to change our custom builder into a 3D custom builder with augmented reality as well. So it'll be a QR code, you scan the QR code, and then whatever you've designed will pop up on your teeth through like a selfie camera thing. So that's just part of the experience. But really, this is what I've had done wrong for so long was I try to have all my options on the website, and there's so much customization and it was a bit overwhelming. Whereas really what I need to do is just get you in for a discovery call, find out your needs, and then start the process there, and then you'll end up whatever you wanted anyway. But it's much smoother journey for the customer, right? You just, well, you have step one, just get in touch, let's have a call, let's chat, let's figure out your budget, let's figure out what you'd like to wear, what options you're after, and then we craft it for you. And I think that's the secret source for me.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

So you've still got a custom website, and it sounds like it's still going to be fairly custom on WordPress with some cool features. And then are you getting customers that actually transact on the website, or is it all manual call and build?

Customisation and Fitment: The Grillz Process

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah, so I'd say 50-50. So we do get quite a bit coming online. Now there's a lot more competitors over East. So I find my online sales might have come down a little bit, but my local sales are like tripled, maybe quadrupled. So I want to grow that online sales because obviously it's a lot easier, but it's nice where you just open your phone and orders come through. Person's gone through that journey by themselves, they know exactly what they want, they bought it, and then you just have to do it. But then also you'd lose the connection. And a lot of what I do is cosmetic dentistry, high-end dentistry, like aligners, veneers. So it'd be nice to offer those options as well and then tailor like a whole package. Let's get your whole mouth clean, let's get your whole mouth healthy, straighten your teeth if you want. Then the grills are like the little final touch, like sort of the cherry on top at the end. That's the way I see the like the ultimate customer journey for me. And with everything that I can offer and everything I've trained in, is how do we look after you as a person, not just make a quick grill and quick sale is actually get a lot more lifetime value out of each of our customers as well. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

And there's no point just putting grills over bad teeth because that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah, exactly. Not cool, it doesn't last, and it goes against one of our values, which is to be healthy. We work in healthy mouths, so the grills last.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah. On the order from the website, grills, how do you manage fitment for people who are just going in to buy something off the shelf from a grills perspective? Most people I could imagine don't know fitment for the mouth. How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

So this is the system I kind of built. This would be around COVID time when I couldn't take any more sales. So once they make their order, I we they get sent a custom, like a little kit, and it's got a QR code on built into the box. So you scan that QR code, takes you to a video that shows you step by step on how to do the fitting and has all the ingredients you need. You know, it's got the putty, the gloves, and a return satchel as well. And then they mix the putty, they take a mold. Once they've done the mold, they'll send a photo to us and then we can verify it. And if they mess it up, I just send them some extra putty. But I don't know what's happened in the last couple of years, but the kids have just become like mini dentists, and the quality of the molds they're doing are just amazing. Like I haven't had to send that second round of putty, I can't tell you in like a couple of years, because they're just nailing it, and like I don't know, maybe the video is really good or they're watching online, but the kids are just nailing it, and it's blowing my mind a little bit because it took me so long to learn how to do a good mold, but I get these molds back and they're like pristine. So I get a photo of the mold or a video, I say give them a thumbs up, it's all good, and then it comes back express post to me usually a couple of nights. And yeah, so it's this really nice streamlined system. Obviously, a lot of people just that hate that idea, so I say just take that kit to your dentist, and then their dentist can do it as well, which is again an ideal option because they'll get their teeth cleaned, checked, and then the dentist just does the mold. So you get a little mixed bag, but I'm finding, yeah, most of them are just nailing it. And so they take them all themselves, chuck in this return satchel, drop it at the post office, and usually within a week it's it's all done.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

And are they selecting what jewelry they want on their grills, or is it kind of a predetermined options for them to pick from?

Pricing and Perception: The Real Value of Grillz

SPEAKER_00 17:27

There's both. We've got some pre-designed options, which are like, you know, the really popular ones, some canines or a double or a little open face for the heart, whatever. Those are like, I'd say, the top 20 or 30 that are really popular. They're all available in the shop, so you just know I want that one, I can buy it. But then there's also the customization ability where you want to have cup chop and change a couple of teeth here, a couple of teeth there, or a bigger piece, then that's available as well. And then if they have even crazier ideas, I literally can go off a sketch. So they can just send me a sketch. And then we've got some crazy ones where they've got like little Spider-Man logos and all that kind of stuff. So that becomes like a computer assisted design sort of one. So that's where they pay a deposit for I think it was like 250 bucks. But then we can literally 3D render whatever they want, and they can even pick different metals in that 3D render, so they can and different colored stones, and my jeweler will send me that 3D render. I can send it to them. They confirm, okay, this is what I want. I want to change this, da da da. And once they give us a thumbs up, then it gets made. And then once we've done that 3D render, we can also work out how much alloy we need, how many stones we need, and that gives us a better, sort of better idea for the costing as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

What kind of price point are you talking? Because I can imagine on the upper side, you could go as far or as high as you wanted to. What's the usual entry point?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

So, according to my Stripe, my average sale is about 770 bucks. So that usually would cover two to three teeth in gold, or in silver, that's maybe like four or five teeth. Chrome, I'd say yeah, it's a couple teeth as well. That's usually an entry point. And then when you start adding more customization or diamonds, especially, you know, diamonds for a full diamond tooth, it's about two grand for a removable one. So if you someone came in and they want like five or six diamond teeth or ten diamond teeth, that's when those costs really go up. And I found because I used to always chase, especially in my early days, I was like, oh, people just want to, you know, do you want to compete on cost? But I actually found that worse for my business because no one wants to buy cheap jewelry and no one's to say I spent money on cheap jewelry. They want to say I spent 50 grand on my grills. It's the same as your teeth, right? I found people who got their teeth done. It wasn't about even the teeth, it was about saying I spent 50 grand on my teeth. Yes. So there's a psychology aspect to it where I just have to just import, like I guess, demonstrate that value, really. But a lot of people, they just they they know that you know, I want to the rap songs all say it, right? Spend 20 grand at Eliante or Johnny Dang or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

It's a status symbol. It is a status symbol, completely, yeah. And you're a really key part of that, right? Because as you're talking, I'm like, it's a lot like tattoo artists, obviously, very different applications, but in terms of people have so much pride in Saying, I've got a tattoo guy. And it's like you are part of that story. And it's a very emotional thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Yeah, definitely. And I have a few guys like that. They come in and you know, you're just the guy, and then they just like to show with their friends, oh, I spent this much money here.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

I think that's a really interesting angle from a kid perspective. Not that we'll go down this path a lot, but I'm just thinking about my son. He's 11, going on, 20, loves rap, loves all that world. And I could imagine if I said to him, hey, you know, you can get grills and they're not permanent, you'd have to save your ass off to get them. But they're there. I could imagine how excited he would be at the prospect when he's 16, 17 of getting them.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Do you have a lot of kids at that age coming through? I just say a lot. I usually try to convince them to say, Look, jaws are gonna grow, your teeth are gonna shift. This is just not gonna fit after a while. I've had maybe, I can think of three that have come in. One came in with his dad, I think he's wanted to drop like 1500 bucks on a full set of chrome grills. And even I was like, dude, I think you should spend this money on a car or something. Like, I think it's gonna help you a bit better. And uh yeah, but they just, you know, it's in their mind, it's been in their mind for months. Like, yeah, who am I to tell them no? So then I then I tried to leverage as a way to okay, you're at the dentist now, look, you've got these dental problems, like you've got to keep this clean, and it's a good little angle for young people to start getting dental. I think dentistry is a bit cool, and keep you looking after your teeth becomes a bit cooler, keeping your teeth clean becomes a bit cooler. So I like it in that point of view. I'd love to push the young kids' side in that way of promoting hygiene, promoting dental health as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah, if you want girls, the best way is to clean your teeth, not get grills.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah, exactly. I need to promote that much more. Definitely.

Overcoming Self-Doubt

SPEAKER_01 21:40

That stuff works. And so, from an e-commerce perspective, you mentioned the WordPress, and it strikes me that a lot of what you've built, you've iterated over the way. And you talked about a systems approach where you've built systems. What's been your biggest challenge in making grills a sustainable e-commerce business?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Actually, say the biggest challenge is me. I don't know if it's my preconceived notions or me listening to what other people say and everyone going, is there really a market for grills? Is there really a market for grills? And I'm making heaps of sales, and you know, people are booking in, I'm getting contacts, I'm like, okay, obviously there's a need. But sometimes, even in my head, I'm still like, ah, I don't know if this is gonna really I think it's just like a little hobby thing, but it's not. You know, you don't need a million customers, you need your like 10,000, 5,000, 10,000 really good loyal fans, and you have an amazing brand and business, and you don't have to sell to everyone. I'd say that would be my one of my biggest problems. And the second one is just running out of time. Like, yeah, if my dentistry is cranking, I find Dr. Girls comes sort of second. And now I'm kind of flipping it and realizing no, Dr. Grills is actually my my biggest passion, and I've got to build everything around that.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

And what's stopping you from scaling it apart from time?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah, right now, the way I've structured it, everything's kind of separate. So my dentistry is really separate, my Dr. Grills are separate, but the problem is Dr. Girls generates a lot of my dentistry work now, and it's not filtering back into my Dr. Grills business. So that's why we're gonna restructure the whole thing that I'm gonna just become an employee of Dr. Grills and then everything goes to Dr. Grills. That's probably been the biggest bottleneck because the funds that Dr. Girls are earning isn't been coming back to Dr. Grills.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

So once that happens and I've it's all filtering in, then you'll get a clearer PL and you'll be able to reinvest and reinvest, get some finance, get a proper shop going.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

And I think having a brick and mortar shop is is really the big next step for me now.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

That's cool. So would you have it separate to the dentistry or just purely a Dr. Grills experience?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Yeah, no, I'm gonna I want to mix it all together. I want to turn dentistry on its head. So because the other big problem was no one really wants to go to the dentist to get grills. Like all the rap songs are about you go to the jewelry store. You go to the jewelry store, you get your teeth iced there, you get your chains, whatever. That's the experience. That's what's baked into the culture. And so it has to be that where you're going to a jewelry shop, but then the tech and the tools are all there for the dentistry to happen. That's, I think, gonna really put me on the map and just create the most incredible set, like customer journey as well.

Grillz and Acceptance

SPEAKER_01 24:07

What do your dentistry friends or colleagues think about your grills offshoot?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

I'd have to say almost every one of my bosses at the start would be like, yeah, you can do your grills here, it's fine. You know, they don't think it's you know much. And then they see how many people start coming through and the dollars they start coming through. And I think every single one of my bosses that have had a problem with it over the years. Like I remember my first boss, so yeah, he was really against it. He's like, this is not dentistry, this is just like some fad, da-da-da-da-da. And most of my colleagues, like I'd say the ones that are my friends, yeah, they think it's cool. But again, dentists are a weird bunch. Like, I don't know what it is about dentistry, it just attracts this weird type of nerdy person. And I even had a dental practice which I sold mid last year, and the whole premise was that we were going to do the business, and he was like, I want to bring you on because you can bring in lots of clients, and then he just we still had a disagreement and he just wanted it gone after a while. So I've I've just found it just really clashes with the dentist's brain. I guess maybe it's not functional, but you know, it's just a different aesthetic. Like some people want super white teeth and some people want gold. And um, there's no right or wrong. I just I just love it. I just think it looks really cool, and I just want to do it in a way that's not gonna destroy their teeth. You know, I can do very minimal reduction of their teeth, I can drill away 0.3 millimeters, so you can go really fine with this stuff. There is a safe way to do it, and that's kind of my philosophy. But I'd say the general dentist community doesn't like it, but there is probably 2%, 5% of them that do get around it, and those are like usually my friends.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Yeah, I could just imagine if I took that putty into my dentist and said, Hey, can you just frame my teeth up so that I can get some grills though? I would just get some weird looks.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah, a lot just flat out say no. They just say we won't we won't do it, and then it's just a just a headache. Like it doesn't cost them anything, doesn't do anything, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

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The Revolution of 3D Printing in Dentistry

SPEAKER_00 27:15

So 3D printing is probably, I would say, the biggest revolution in dentistry in the last 50 years. Because what it allows us is the problem with dentistry, we've got two ways of fixing teeth. We've got one way which I fix it in your mouth, and we've got to sculpt it all in your mouth, but then you've got to stay with your mouth open. So if I'm trying to fix your whole mouth or a lot of teeth, you're gonna have to be in the chair for like four hours with your mouth open. And the other problem is trying to sculpt a perfect tooth with your hand. Very difficult. And then the third problem is the material that we use, the plastic, every time you set it with the light, it shrinks a little bit and shrinks a little bit. So it puts little gaps in, it puts a lot of stress on the tooth that can break the tooth later on. So that's like all the downsides. And then we've only got that option or the top option, which is like porcelain or gold, which is you know very expensive, very slow to do, usually takes a couple of weeks. So there's nothing kind of in between. And 3D printing is just completely solve that middle, the middle option where I can just clean the tooth, I scan it, I did digitally design whatever needs to know, whatever's missing, and then I can just 3D print it out. But I can 3D print out 20 restorations at the same time in about less than half an hour. And where are you doing that? Are you doing that in practice? I'm doing that in practice. So my typical day with that would be my patient comes in the morning, we numb them, we clean out all the, you know, the decay, the bad stuff, we just shape their teeth. A lot of the front teeth, like veneers, we can do without any reduction of the teeth. So we can do it with no drilling at all. And then we 3D print them out. The beauty of 3D printing is we can go so thin. So we can go one twentieth of a millimeter is how much the layers are built in. So that's how thin we can go. Whereas with porcelain, for the strength, it needs some thickness. So the thickness comes from drilling the tooth back. Okay. So it solves that problem as well. But it's much stronger, and all the shrinkage is happening outside of the person's mouth, so we don't have those problems. And then they come back in the afternoon, and then I just stick everything in, and you can pretty much fix a whole mouth in a day, which is that's wild. Amazing and such a good way for me to practice. If I have one patient for the whole day that I'm just focused on that one person and they're in the chair for like two to three hours, that's like the most ultimate patient journey. The material is much better, and it's cost effective as well. So the efficiency savings I pass down to my patient.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

That's one passion about it. Taking that into grills, has it allowed you to be more creative as well?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

That's what's coming right now. So, grills, what we'll do is we can do like the CAD design and you know, then we make that 3D render, and then I can 3D print that out before we commit to the metal part and the diamonds and all that, and then chrite in their mouth. So we get like we can do a lot of trial versions like that. My assistant's really he's obsessed with grills, so he really wants to learn how to do the digital designing. So that's what he's learning right now. But it's mostly for yeah, the trial versions at the moment. Eventually, when we do our own casting, then we can 3D print that actual pattern and cast whatever we've designed on the computer. It's in the pipeline. And now there's also ways to plate gold onto these 3D printed resins. So you can do trials or you can do like really cheap temporary grills, which have just got like a little dip on them. So if someone says, Hey, I want something for a night and I don't want to spend lots of money, maybe we could 3D print something, gold plate it, and it's very cost effective. And then if they lose it by the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Wow, that's wild. And it kind of goes against it's like that fake status, then, isn't it? It's like, how can you just be it for a little while and show up and have that talkability? I can imagine then that that makes returns and refunds almost out of the picture for you.

Overcoming Customer Objection

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yeah, it does make it very difficult. I do always offer what we call a perfect fit guarantee. So unless that their grills are fitting comfortably, perfectly, and they're not falling out, and then they're really happy, and then I'm happy. But I've had maybe two where we just couldn't get that result, or that the way their teeth shaped is just they've got too much of an undercut, they're just too painful. That's only once I've ever had that. And the other time was yeah, this one girl, and she just like we've tried everything, and the squirrels just don't stay on her teeth. So I'm happy to refund then. You know, I'd rather take a happy customer experience and just give them their money back than risk getting a bad review, bad reputation. It's not worth it. There's enough business to go around to be profitable, like without having to do that. But like you said, it's all custom made. So that's why I always take all payment up front, even online, because once the process is started, like there's no going back at all.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

What's the most common objection that you have to get over with new customers?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

It's funny because you'd think cost would be, but obviously cost isn't because they're they're ready, they're ready to pay. You know, the way my sales process is built is I guess that the objections are handled a bit earlier. So I'd say the biggest objection is actually getting their teeth healthy and saying, like, look, you need to get your teeth cleaned or you've got to fix you've got some serious problems going on. That's I would say actually is the biggest objection. They're like, I don't want to deal with that. I don't care. I just want my gold teeth now. And so I've had to just kind of get a consent form and be like, look, you these are grills, there's no guarantee how long they're gonna last, they might stop fitting, the tooth underneath compromise. Are you still happy to go ahead? And I have a one guy, and he's he's in a what we call terminal dentition. So his teeth are just falling apart. There's infection, they're broken, da da da. And he just wanted something to get by. So we made him a grill and he loves it and he keeps it in. And now, like, we've built such a good relationship that the next step will be, and he's kind of planning for is okay, now we're gonna do the full mouth reconstruction. He's probably gonna spend about 60 grand on it because he needs just like he just needs a new mouth, basically. And so it has been a really good stepping stone that okay, I got them what they wanted initially, and instead of just being like, nope, I'm not gonna do it, okay, I'll do it, but as long as you know this is what's coming, and then you know, the problems don't go away. So they do it, the teeth end up breaking, they do get a painful tooth, and then when that grill stops fitting, okay, now we're ready to do the work. So maybe it's just a stepping stone rather than just trying to force them into this way of like, no, we have to get your mouth healthy first. I find that sometimes it's good to have these different pathways and be like, okay, your mouth is unhealthy. We'll get you to something to get you by. When things fall apart, we're here for you when to help you with the real project.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

You're navigating some tricky conversations there because I can see, you know, obviously with all your training and your education, you're thinking long term, you know what can happen. And your customers are coming to you who are excited and they see the outcome or the you know, the outcome that they want. They just want something that sparkles in their mouth. It's hard to get them in that right mindset to have the right conversation.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah, it's definitely my toxic trade is I'm a people pleaser as well. So I just want to be like, yeah, it's all good. We'll make it work, you know. And uh in my journey, I've learned like you have to have that tough conversation early. You're definitely with dentistry, like, you know, you just want to say, yep, no worries, we can do like a filling, and then the tooth breaks, and then you're the bad guy, even though you kind of did tell them. So now I think over 11 years of experience being a dentist, now you learn to be like, okay, we're definitely going to get you to that goal that you have, but we're just gonna chip away these little things on the journey there. And then there's just the way to navigate it with yeah, communication and not just being so forceful and just trying to, you know, if so, especially when they come in really headstrong that I want to go down, you know, this is what I want. You kind of have to learn how to steer them into the direction you want rather than pushing too much because then they just get frustrated or they go to someone else who doesn't care, and then they're in a worse situation five years down the line.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah. We've all been there, right? Slipping on a great-looking pair of shoes, only to regret it a couple of hours later. Who knew that blisters could get blisters? Well, the founders of Frankie Ford did, and that's why they've created a line of stylish, podiatrist designed footwear that don't just look good, they actually feel good too. But what began as an online success story quickly stepped into the real world with retail stores opening across the country. And when they moved to the Shopify Plus plan and rolled out Shopify Pods in store, Frankie 4 really hit their stride. Now everything works together, from online browsing to install buying. It's one smooth, unified commerce experience for both customers and the Frankie4 team. And with the Shopify app store, they're able to test new features quickly to see what works. It's paying off too, with 170% increase in site visits, a 25% drop in return rates, and more happy feat than ever. Streamlined, stable, seriously stylish. That's Frankie4 on Shopify. To read more success stories like this, search Shopify Case Studies online. I'm interested in the new augmented reality experience that you've got coming up. And I know you've got a little bit of that on the website at the moment, not truly augmented reality, but being able to kind of see how it looks. And I think for most people, like it'd be interesting, I'd love to know your commer your conversion rate from that experience into actually getting grills. But I can imagine for a lot of people, it would be like being able to test different lip shades or different hair colours or watches, even, with no intention to overbuy a Rolex, but they want to know what a Rolex looks like on their hand. Do you see that as being a great marketing tool for you in terms of just social content that people can have to get out there to go, hey, this is what I'd look like if I had this grill set?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

That's exactly the reason I wanted to do it. It's not about it's yeah, it's just for the fun factor of trying to capture those people that are on the fringe that could never see themselves wearing it. I would never get a grill, that would never be for me. But now suddenly they can just be, oh, let me just see what it looked like to have my two little teeth here, gold. And it just sort of creates that like gamification thing of let me just try it. It's like, you know, you're like a little avatar or a sim or whatever, and you get to mess around with that with them without committing to anything. It's kind of that experience which can start to capture in more people. And I'm still working on this, but trying to build that sort of pipeline to capture all this people. And if maybe I won't convert them to a grills client, but maybe I can get their teeth clean. Maybe they want to straighten their teeth, maybe they've got a wisdom tooth that's hurting, and just trying to create that flow that just captures all these different people, and then we can sort them and take them on their journey, even if even if they end up with just like a tiny little tooth gem or just some whitening. As I say, it's just to add a sparkle to your smile, and that can be yeah, anything from whitening to a diamond implant, like whatever whatever your heart desires, really.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Love it. And in terms of building that out, are you building that from scratch or is it something off the shelf that you're customizing?

SPEAKER_00 37:30

No, definitely customizing. Um, we're trying to build it through Go High Level at the moment. So everything's trying to build built into Go High Level, starting with the discovery call as like the step one. And then the rest, I'm still piecing together with some of my marketing friends and some of my business mentors. Like that is the project for this month, actually. Is let's rebuild this sales journey and and sort of pipeline them into three different categories. So, like green being mouse healthy, regular dentist, good to go. Yellow is need some procedures before, you've got some options they want to do first. Maybe they need the clean, maybe they need some whitening, whatever, of some feelings, and then they're good to go. And then the red categories, okay, now they need serious major work that's gonna stop them from getting the grill, and just creating a process that filters them all into one of those three pathways, and then having my staff and my support staff as like the next step of okay, you're in this category, this is your journey now. And that's gonna be the secret to scaling, scaling this because it is still healthcare as well. And I still want the first thing to be a good medical history or good dental history. Like, how do we really take care of you as a person? Get your health really to up there in the journey of getting you iced out as well.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

I love that. So the grills is almost like the sign of not status where we were at the start, but it's just you want it to be the sign of a healthy mouth because you've had everything else taken care of and it's kind of the cherry on top once everything else is pumping.

Building a Healthy Dental Journey

SPEAKER_00 38:53

And then it should be 10 years of just like your regular maintenance, checkups, just hi, how you doing? Good to see you, but not getting back in the chair to patch something up. Because I've done that my whole career where you've just done this patchy, and it's what you're taught in dental schools, what we call like how to be a single-tooth dentist, where you just learn how to fix one tooth really well. But that tooth is in a system and in a person that's in a dynamic environment, and that just only gets you so far. So, how do we get away from that patchy sort of style? And okay, maybe there might be a bit more upfront cost, but we can break that over with payment plans or whatever. But just getting all my patients, whether it be grills or not grills, into just a really stable, healthy mouth that for the next 10 years, we're not getting back in the chair to pack something up unless it's like you've had a big accident. It's just if that's the way dentists should be. We're in the modern year of dentistry. It shouldn't be that, oh, every two years I need to get some maintenance done. It's if you imagine you had a car and every two years you'd have to like get some major reworks done. It's a complete dud. You'd fire your mechanic pretty quickly. So yeah, that's the that's the dream for me as well.

Status Quo in Traditional Professions

SPEAKER_01 39:52

So, question for you, Mahir, as a trained, qualified dentist who's gone into e commerce and is Somewhat challenging the system or the preconceptions of your industry, what advice would you have for other professionals who might have a background in, say, medical or even trade or other very traditional industries who have these ideas to go, actually, this is how we can come at it from a different angle and we can have a more modern approach. You've been at this game for 10 years. What are some of the key lessons that you think others could learn from as they learn to challenge the industry they're in?

SPEAKER_00 40:32

So, like you've got these two pathways, right? You've got the conventional pathway where, okay, you're gonna make everyone's no one, you're not gonna displease everyone. It's not you no one's gonna like you for it, but you're never gonna step on any toes, right? But you're probably just gonna have a really boring career that's not inspiring. You're not gonna get up and wake up every day jumping to get to work. That is what 90% of your colleagues are doing, right? And then there's the other option where you go down your path, you're gonna live a very passionate life, you're gonna have more problems, more challenges, maybe, but you're gonna be much more fulfilled. And like either option is not for everyone, right? So if you really feel you're one of these trades and you're a professional, but you've got you can see a better way of doing things or your own unique style, like my sister's a physio, and she's just like this, and she tried to go, she was like, I'm gonna get a job in London, a high-end clinic, and she's she's not in she's so not fulfilled by it. And I think if it's that thing that's sitting in the you know the back of your mind before you go to bed, you're always thinking, Oh, I could do this this way, I could do it this way, I could do it better than my bosses can do it, just go for it. But even if you're gonna be poor for a couple of months or a couple of years and you're still just making through, eventually your style gets out there and word gets out there. And and I told her the same thing, it's like the the essence of good business is like relationships and innovation. And if you can do those two things and you're innovating, you will be successful. That's like that is just good business, and it's like the fundamentals of good business, whether it be e-commerce, whether it be like old brick and mortar, is just like building relationships, innovating, and creating like a workflow that it's it's your own sort of proprietary that will never go out of fashion, that is timeless. And I think it's been the the best journey a human can go on personally.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

And I love that. I love that you've split that out to say, look, there is a you know, especially when you study at medical school, I can imagine there's a little bit of that, well, I've done the hard yards, I've just got to cash in on it now for a while. Or you can challenge the status quo. And to me, that seems to be a big part of it is you just gotta make that decision, which path am I on? And then go for it, like rather than being that limbo.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

And it's okay to go down your conventional path, that's your normal job, you earn your income, you survive off that, and then you have your other passion project that might not be profit-driven, might not be a business, and you just enjoy your life there. That's that's that's like a good life. That's what my parents did, and they're very happy people, you know. They don't get their passion out of work, but they're very passionate in all the other things they do in their life. For me, I just knew I'm gonna be spending a lot of my life at work. And if I could be working with my friends on people I really like who I think are really cool and attracting clients that I'm inspired by that are interesting, and just having cool conversations and try to work in a really cool environment that's mine, and especially that has to be mine. This is what I've realized. That brings me the most joy. So that's my path.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

And I could imagine part of your marketing plan will have to be like following DJs around the world and sponsoring music festivals and things like that. Exactly. It's sponsoring fights.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

I'm really into like my Muay Thai and jujitsu. So we've sponsored a few fights, get some mouth guards in there, like yeah, and that's where again, what like I said at the start, like my friends said this business is just so you, so this is why I regret not pouring just even more effort into it over the past few years, but that was part of my upskilling and learning my my trade really well.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Well, it's one of the most unique e-commerce stories that we've heard on Ad ToCart, and we appreciate you sharing it with us. What is the next 12 months? Where are the priorities for you and the Dr. Reals team over the next 12 months?

SPEAKER_00 43:50

So I kind of look at this year as a bit of a hard reset where I just want to scrap everything back and rebuild the customer journey. I remember I don't know if I was saw on Instagram or I read it somewhere, there was this pillow company in Japan. I think it's been in business for like a couple of hundred years, and then someone gone and their customer, like the sales process is so dialed in where they examine everything, they give you all the different trial versions, and you just end up with the solution that's perfect for you. I saw that my wife sent me that clip on Instagram, and I was like, I want that. Yeah, it just blew my mind because I was like, I just want to spend the next 10 years refining that sales process for my clients, so it's so smooth, nothing gets missed. People get to exactly where they want to go, and I think that's that's really what I want to spend the like the next 10 years building on, and then using my staff and all the tools that I have. I've got a great team, I've got all this obviously technology. This is the best time for any kind of technology for that sales process. We've got CRMs, we've got Go High Level, we've got you know Kyle Lindley, and it all integrates together, so it's the coolest time and probably the easiest time, and we've got AI to put that together. So that's the the dream, and then hopefully, once that sales process is really smooth and the revenues really crank in, then to create like a really nice brick and mortar store that is like all in one, basically. It's got my studio, I can film a podcast in there. If I I like to DJ as well, if I want to throw a gig there, I'll DJ in there. Like that's yeah, the dream for me right now is just to spend the time to do that. It comes obviously, guys can get you so far, but for a service-based business where you're doing work on clients, like I really need somewhere for people to come. Yeah, and that's kind of the next step for me. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

I think what comes through to me in our conversation is that you are definitely an innovator, you're a systems guy, and you've got a vision and you you but underpinning all of this is a focus on the customer experience and the trust. Like I think you could be a very flashy business in terms of Instagram famous and have a lot of shares and have a lot of views, but without a lot of substance. But it's very obvious to me that your customer experience and your trust and your credibility is the most important thing. And it may have even held you back from having some of that virality because you want to do things right. And I think that's a great approach. So you should uh be very proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Thank you. Thank you. I think you nailed it. It has been slower, it's been crazy to watch my competitors blow up, you know, on on alongside me. But now I find the work just finds you. Like when you have that repute reputation, and reputation goes so far, and we don't really focus on building that as much anymore. Because it's easy to fake, right? On Instagram, you can create your own reputation or your own image however you want. But I'm hitting this point where the words getting out there, and like for example, today I had a very quiet day, almost two bookings, I think, two checkups. And by yesterday it's fully booked, it's got high-end work. Someone just booked in, you know, two, three hours of high-end work. And that's quite amazing. No marketing, no ad spend. And that's what we forget about that side because we're so driven on you know pumping ads, pumping ads, pumping ads, and actually, that's just one of many pathways to build leads and build work.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Yeah, great point. I can't let you leave without asking you for a personal recommendation. If I was to go get grills tomorrow as the host of this podcast, and I've been very conscious about my teeth actually while speaking to you. If I was to go get grills tomorrow, what would be your recommendation to me based on what you know of me from our chat so far? What would you recommend for me?

SPEAKER_00 47:13

First question I need to know is do you wear more silver or do you wear more gold? I'm more of a silver guy. Okay. And would you be going for a more subtle aesthetic or a more like you want to make a bit more of a statement? I'm making statements here. We're all out. Okay, look, I think the most timeless piece, the best one to start with, especially for you, would be just some silver canines, some silver fangs on the bottom. It would be still a bit subtle, still a bit dominant as well. Great place to start. And then you can build off that as well. We can add some more scents and build off that. So I think that's a great place to start.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

There we go. All right, well, you've got me thinking now, and maybe at the next Add Descartes event, I'll be I'll be turning up wearing my silver canines. Yes. How cool. I love, I love what you're doing. Dr. Meh Shah, thank you so much for joining us on Add to Cart. If people want to go and check out what you are doing and perhaps play around with the different grills options, what's the best way for them to do that?

SPEAKER_00 48:04

So, best way to chat with me or find out what I'm doing, Instagram, dr dr underscore grills with a Z. That's the easiest way to find me. If you see what we're up to, you can probably get the most live updates. If you want to make some grills, try some grills. The old builder is customed.drgurilles.com. But the new one's going to be coming, I think, in the end of next month. And that will be just on drgorills.com. You'll see it's like a 3D builder, it'll be a QR code. Try out some sets, see what you like, send me some screenshots. And um, if you're confused, just draw something or send me a picture and then we can chat and we can make something amazing for you.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

That's awesome. I expect to be rocking up at all the e-commerce events this year, just with everyone just rocking grills. Oh, that's the dream. That's the dream. How good. Dr. Mahir Shah, thank you so much for joining us on that Descartes.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Thanks for having me, Nathan. Uh, great to chat.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

I'd never met Dr. Mahir Shah before that. And I was fully expecting this to be a huge Instagram and social play, but everything came back to looking after the wellness and the health of their customers. And I wasn't expecting that. So I love when those conversations take a little bit of a different turn to where we thought they'd go. In fact, he was very open that he hasn't leveraged the social opportunity that is there with Dr. Grills. I can't wait to watch them over the next 12 to 24 months to see if they crack that as well. But there was plenty in there to take away if you are an e-commerce professional or a founder looking to improve your experience. And I've got three lessons that I want you to take away. Number one, if you have a complicated product or you require your customers to be doing something in the process, take the time to make sure your instructional content is set up correctly in that it's easy to understand and that it's pretty straightforward so that the customers can get in and do it. When Dr. Mahir Shah talked about young kids being able to mold their own teeth to be able to come up with the at-home mold kits, he was blown away by how well they could do that. I've got a feeling that they didn't learn that themselves, that he put a lot of thought and because he is actually a dentist, knew how to do it and could explain it to others, that that's the reason that was so successful. That in itself means that the system works for Dr. Mahisha and Dr. Grills because it reduces errors, reduces support requests, and it increases customer confidence that they're going to get something that fits well. The result is a much smoother process in a really critical area that could blow things apart and cause a lot of costs and a lot of chaos or really streamline the operation. Now you might not have something that is as unique as Dr. Grill's in your business, but even if you think about things like fitment guides, where do you need to put the effort in to reduce those returns? Do you need to up your effort with those fitment guides to reduce returns, increase customer confidence, and get more conversions? Those are some critical pain points where you need to put those efforts in to make sure the communication is really clear. The second thing I got out of that was don't be scared of premium pricing. I love there where Mahir talked about that big part of what they do with Dr. Grills is being able to say, hey, I've got$20,000 worth of jewelry in my mouth. That is actually part of it. And when you think about luxury fashion, that's essentially what the labels are saying. Hey, I can afford this. The pricing is a huge part of the value proposition when buying. However, most of us spend most of our days thinking about how do we actually make things cheaper? How do we reduce the cost? Now it's not going to be right for everyone, but if you put your focus on identity, status, personal transformation, how can you use those messages to not just justify price point, but to potentially increase a price point. Long term, that has a huge amplification effect. And number three, trust can outperform ads as a growth lever, but in the long term. I have no doubt that Dr. Grills could be a viral Instagram success. And it could take a week to do that. They could do that overnight. However, if they did that, the team probably won't keep up with the demand, customers won't get the same experience, and they won't be serving their overall mission of overall better mouth health. So they've taken that approach of do a soft, steady, and trusted approach to make sure that everyone who comes in has a great experience. Of course, they're gonna come up against their competitors who are really flashy and cheap and quick to be able to give people that instant satisfaction. Of course, they're gonna come up against competitors who pump money into ads with some flashy UGC and some great imagery that will go viral. It's a really great viral category. But will they be able to service them and have the experience that Mahir and the team are looking for long term? I don't think so. So I really like their approach that they have gone for that trust approach, especially with this dentist background. Think about that. As you're pumping money into the meta machine, are you doing it from a position of trust and credibility, or is it actually taking some of that away? That's it for this week. What an amazingly awesome, unique episode. 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